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[Politics] Owen Jones



B

BLOCK F

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2009
6,359
Exilegull said:
Problem is the same old story of boomers and middle class house owners wanting a "centrist" (meaning firmly right wing if measured by 20th century standards) party and young people wanting actual change. Its like something happens when youre 50-60 and you get scared people arent you to the point you pretend theyre you and would make choices based on you. But just like in most elections the last 50 years the old haggards happy with the slow deterioration of our country are demonising younger generations asking for change and youve seen the results and youre going to see the results again. Young people are not going to vote centrist because they dont share the idea that "centrism" is perfection they see it as cowardly ideas taking us nowhere. "Lets just have a non descript centrist party and everyone will vote for it" has been the idea of our middle class forever and its always been about this egotistical desire not to pay taxes
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Those you demeaningly call ‘old haggards’ often have offspring and these are the younger generations you are talking about that you infer the ‘old haggards’ don’t care about and demonise.
I can assure you that many of us ‘old haggards’ do care about the younger generation and sympathise with the plight many find themselves in, especially the cost of houses, amongst other things.
Why do you assume us ‘old haggards’ are happy with a slow deterioration of our country?
I could go on, but I won’t. I must say though, that you are wrong in your sweeping assumptions about us ‘old haggards’. However, wisdom, not cowardice, has taught us that steering a middle course , slightly left or right of the tempting rocks of idealism, is the best way to navigate the good ship U.K.
Anyway, don’t lose your idealism, but prepare for disappointment along the way.👍
 
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jcdenton08

jcdenton08

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Oct 17, 2008
10,712
Exilegull said:
Problem is the same old story of boomers and middle class house owners wanting a "centrist" (meaning firmly right wing if measured by 20th century standards) party and young people wanting actual change. It’s like something happens when youre 50-60 and you get scared people arent you to the point you pretend theyre you and would make choices based on you. But just like in most elections the last 50 years the old haggards happy with the slow deterioration of our country are demonising younger generations asking for change and youve seen the results and youre going to see the results again. Young people are not going to vote centrist because they dont share the idea that "centrism" is perfection they see it as cowardly ideas taking us nowhere. "Lets just have a non descript centrist party and everyone will vote for it" has been the idea of our middle class forever and its always been about this egotistical desire not to pay taxes
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I just turned 38, not a boomer or a middle class home owner, I do a relatively low paid job in the arts sector which I love. I want change from the current government and loathe the current Tory mess.

However, I (and the majority of Brits) don’t want a hard socialist government. Nobody wants what you keep telling people they want. The facts, polls and elections consistently bear this out.
 


Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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heathgate said:
Sadly, those younger generations are in general leaning more to the left,... I put that almost entirely down to the fact that they haven't, as adults at least, lived through the cold war era, seen the brutal realities of socialist/communist regimes,... seen the reality of what the proper cancel cultures of Marxism does to a society.

These generations are going to have to get real experience of these ideologies, then they will move to a more palatable centrist position.
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Why do refer to left governments are “brutalist socialist/communist regimes”? Northern Europe has numerous examples and none are like how you perceive them.
 


jackalbion

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Aug 30, 2011
4,044
Weststander said:
Rent-a-gob Owen Jones also childishly stuck his snout into the Kate Middleton trolling. The musings of a snide, not someone to be taken seriously. Sadly we’ll regularly see his face over the next 5 or 10 years as he attempts to help derail a Labour government.

“Journalist and political activist Owen Jones has also expressed remorse for adding to commentary on Kate’s whereabouts.

After a photo of Kate and her three children was recalled by photo agencies after realising it had been manipulated, Jones remarked on the “kill notice” with: “I am so obsessed with this already omg!!”

Another post featured Jones sharing his scepticism about a photograph of Kate and Prince William in a car together. He wrote: “You have to be kidding me. That is not a public appearance. Choo choo! All aboard the Kate Middleton truther express!”
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Absolutely nothing wrong with this in my opinion. It was public topic and lots and lots of people made public comment about the merry go round, it was a fairly light hearted conspiracy theory, hindsight is a wonderful thing and it turned out to be very serious, he publically apologised which is a lot more than many others in the public eye did.
 


heathgate

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Apr 13, 2015
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Herr Tubthumper said:
Why do refer to left governments are “brutalist socialist/communist regimes”? Northern Europe has numerous examples and none are like how you perceive them.
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I'd be interested to read your examples.... in my view, only France has a smidgen of socialism/collectivism, and that at a local level only... it is a mixed economy to some extent, but capitalism underpins it all.

My examples are the entire eastern bloc, many post colonial African and Asian states, some post revolutionary south and central American states..... too many to name individually.... though all totalitarian in outcome, and ultimately proved to be failures in a world that actually thrived under the freedoms that capitalism helps generate.
 
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Comrade Sam

Comrade Sam

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Jan 31, 2013
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So the story is young journalists has principles and wants to stop children in Gaza from dying, the NHS and education from destruction and the environment from being destroyed. What a petulant twerp. Thank god we don't have politicians motivated by making a better world.
 


Herr Tubthumper

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heathgate said:
I'd be interested to read your examples.... in my view, only France has a smidgen of socialism/collectivism, and that at a local level only... it is a mixed economy to some extent, but capitalism underpins it all.

My examples are the entire eastern bloc, many post colonial African and Asian states, some post revolutionary south and central American states..... too many to name individually.
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You seem to be conflating two things. You refer to young people “leaning more to the left” and then suggest they do this as they have no experience of “communist regimes” which suggests this is what they want.

I consider myself on the left but this doesn’t mean I want to be ruled by a British Pol Pot. What it does mean is I want a fairer and more caring society and system where the basic needs in life are provided by the state and not for private profit. You can find this in many countries. Every left leaning person I know broadly wants this as well. I hazard a guess and suggest this is maybe what the young you refer to also want.
 


heathgate

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Herr Tubthumper said:
You seem to be conflating two things. You refer to young people “leaning more to the left” and then suggest they do this as they have no experience of “communist regimes” which suggests this is what they want.

I consider myself on the left but this doesn’t mean I want to be ruled by a British Pol Pot. What it does mean is I want a fairer and more caring society and system where the basic needs in life are provided by the state and not for private profit. You can find this in many countries. Every left leaning person I know broadly wants this as well. I hazard a guess and suggest this is maybe what the young you refer to also want.
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Where is that provided? even your much lauded nation of Germany has a two tier hybrid health system... as does France..... most of the national health and education systems around Europe are underpinned by PFI type partnership....

I certainly get the case for nationalised transport systems, although even there, the state owned/managed systems throughout Europe, are subject to competition from better performing private franchises... maybe Spain is the exception here.

Those younger voters, have idealistic views of the left and what it can provide for them, they are blind to the political violence that the far left enjoyed historically, hence they are not put off from espousing far left opinions and aspirations.
 




Weststander

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jackalbion said:
Absolutely nothing wrong with this in my opinion. It was public topic and lots and lots of people made public comment about the merry go round, it was a fairly light hearted conspiracy theory, hindsight is a wonderful thing and it turned out to be very serious, he publically apologised which is a lot more than many others in the public eye did.
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It was tittle tattle worthy of Eamonn Holmes or a Sun showbizz columnist, about someone who can’t reply, someone Jones would probably dislike through his middle class warrior persona. Not the work of a supposed serious journalist or activist.

The apology was post the revelation of a very private matter, cancer. Jones and others had to for PR.

He came out of this badly, reiterating he’s a snide. Something we’ll see a lot over the next 5 years as he attempts to derail Reeves et al as a back seat driver.
 
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Comrade Sam

Comrade Sam

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Jan 31, 2013
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Weststander said:
It was tittle tattle worthy of Eamonn Holmes or a Sun showbizz columnist, about someone who can’t reply, someone Jones would probably dislike through his middle class warrior persona. Not the work of a supposed serious journalist or activist.

The apology was post the revelation of a very private matter, cancer. Jones and others had to for PR.

He came out of this badly, reiterating a snide. Something we’ll see a lot over the next 5 years as he attempts to derail Reeves et al as a back seat driver.
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Was it ok for Reeves etc al to derail the last election as a back seat driver?
 


E

Exilegull

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Mar 14, 2024
347
heathgate said:
Where is that provided? even your much lauded nation of Germany has a two tier hybrid health system... as does France..... most of the national health and education systems around Europe are underpinned by PFI type partnership....

I certainly get the case for nationalised transport systems, although even there, the state owned/managed systems throughout Europe, are subject to competition from better performing private franchises... maybe Spain is the exception here.

Those younger voters, have idealistic views of the left and what it can provide for them, they are blind to the political violence that the far left enjoyed historically, hence they are not put off from espousing far left opinions and aspirations.
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Political violence comes from all directions its not like the old right wing military juntas in South America played it soft also right wing parties played the forefront in colonisation in other continents resulting in millions and millions of deaths or the Nazis who were only "socialist" by name. Tell me why were going to forget this but not the political violence from the left. Free education free school meals non profit health care non profite transport systems tell me exactly how these things lead to Gulag
 






Seaview Seagull

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Mar 1, 2021
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heathgate said:
Where is that provided? even your much lauded nation of Germany has a two tier hybrid health system... as does France..... most of the national health and education systems around Europe are underpinned by PFI type partnership....

I certainly get the case for nationalised transport systems, although even there, the state owned/managed systems throughout Europe, are subject to competition from better performing private franchises... maybe Spain is the exception here.

Those younger voters, have idealistic views of the left and what it can provide for them, they are blind to the political violence that the far left enjoyed historically, hence they are not put off from espousing far left opinions and aspirations.
Click to expand...
Left wing baby boomer here! Your attempt to divide generations into young =left old= right won't wash. Millions on each side don't fit the analysis. Actually, from my perspective the problem is that the young don't vote in enough numbers to further their aspirations.

On your other point which left of centre government in the UK has ever espoused violence to achieve its aims?
 






B

borat

Well-known member
Jul 16, 2003
471
Herr Tubthumper said:
You seem to be conflating two things. You refer to young people “leaning more to the left” and then suggest they do this as they have no experience of “communist regimes” which suggests this is what they want.

I consider myself on the left but this doesn’t mean I want to be ruled by a British Pol Pot. What it does mean is I want a fairer and more caring society and system where the basic needs in life are provided by the state and not for private profit. You can find this in many countries. Every left leaning person I know broadly wants this as well. I hazard a guess and suggest this is maybe what the young you refer to also want.
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The mild wishes you have broadly described (akin to the Labour 2019 manifesto) is what the liberal and right wing media label ''hard left''
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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Jul 11, 2003
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heathgate said:
Where is that provided? even your much lauded nation of Germany has a two tier hybrid health system... as does France..... most of the national health and education systems around Europe are underpinned by PFI type partnership....

I certainly get the case for nationalised transport systems, although even there, the state owned/managed systems throughout Europe, are subject to competition from better performing private franchises... maybe Spain is the exception here.

Those younger voters, have idealistic views of the left and what it can provide for them, they are blind to the political violence that the far left enjoyed historically, hence they are not put off from espousing far left opinions and aspirations.
Click to expand...
I'm merely saying that the majority of people who support left leaning governments do not mean they they want 'communist regimes'. They simpy want a modern, caring and fairer society as I mentioned above. This is provided by a number of northern european countries which use various versions of social democratic mixed econonmy models to provide this. If you delve into the detail you will sulely be able to find something to criticise BUT overall countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany provide a better society and a more people focused approach in my opinion.

As for Germany's two-tier system I'm not quite sure what you mean but there is a world class customer driven health system avaliable to all. And it's also worth noting that a lot of the things I suggest above, decent and free education, decent subsidised cheap plentiful public transport, accessible healthcare, rules of greenery in the city, councils and leaders on the side of the people etc are provided for regardless of the colour of the government here and elsewhere.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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borat said:
The mild wishes you have broadly described (akin to the Labour 2019 manifesto) is what the liberal and right wing media label ''hard left''
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Ha, I have kind of alluded to this in the last paragraph above. I remember a paper did a piece detailing all the big-ticket items in Corbyn's manifesto then showed examples of where these are routine in other countries regardless of the government.
 


heathgate

heathgate

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Apr 13, 2015
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Seaview Seagull said:
Left wing baby boomer here! Your attempt to divide generations into young =left old= right won't wash. Millions on each side don't fit the analysis. Actually, from my perspective the problem is that the young don't vote in enough numbers to further their aspirations.

On your other point which left of centre government in the UK has ever espoused violence to achieve its aims?
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Have a little read of my post again... the word 'far' features..... your refinement adding 'UK' helps you not at all when the broader political perspective being discussed is not centre left... it's the more extreme ideology seen with modern day student type activist groups who influence much wider than in the past due to clever usage of social media and careful editing of history.
 




heathgate

heathgate

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Apr 13, 2015
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Herr Tubthumper said:
I'm merely saying that the majority of people who support left leaning governments do not mean they they want 'communist regimes'. They simpy want a modern, caring and fairer society as I mentioned above. This is provided by a number of northern european countries which use various versions of social democratic mixed econonmy models to provide this. If you delve into the detail you will sulely be able to find something to criticise BUT overall countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany provide a better society and a more people focused approach in my opinion.

As for Germany's two-tier system I'm not quite sure what you mean but there is a world class customer driven health system avaliable to all. And it's also worth noting that a lot of the things I suggest above, decent and free education, decent subsidised cheap plentiful public transport, accessible healthcare, rules of greenery in the city, councils and leaders on the side of the people etc are provided for regardless of the colour of the government here and elsewhere.
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If you are young and relatively fit, your health premiums in Germany are cheap,... any history of ill health, your premiums rocket,... by customer driven, you mean private.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

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heathgate said:
If you are young and relatively fit, your health premiums in Germany are cheap,... any history of ill health, your premiums rocket,... by customer driven, you mean private.
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This is not strictly true. I can explain a bit more later....got chores to do!
 


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