[Misc] Nottingham murders

Flounce · Mar 25, 2024

Manslaughter or murder?

Where do YOU stand?

I make no apology for the title as to me this is murder and I have no time for the manslaughter charge. I can only put myself in the place of relatives of those who lost their lives and there is no way I’d accept it was manslaughter

Algernon · Mar 25, 2024

This I presume.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-68087302#:~:text=Barnaby%20Webber%20and%20Grace%20O'Malley%2DKumar%2C%20both%2019,justice%20has%20not%20been%20served%22.

Algernon · Mar 25, 2024

Does manslaughter or murder matter when he's likely never going to get out?
Harrowing for the families though.

Flounce · Mar 25, 2024

Algernon said:
Does manslaughter or murder matter when he's likely never going to get out?
Harrowing for the families though.

Yeah, I imagine being in a hospital is somewhat preferable to being in prison

Algernon · Mar 25, 2024

Flounce said:
Yeah, I imagine being in a hospital is somewhat preferable to being in prison

I would think so too but I don't expect he'll be allowed to nip downstairs to grab a Costa and a packet of crisps.
Hopefully he'll be strapped to a bed and sedated heavily with absolutely no quality of life in a secure mental facility but unfortunately I don't expect he will.
Hopefully somewhere somewhat like a prison but without all the niceties.
Hope he dies soon.

Dorset Seagull · Mar 25, 2024

If he is truly mentally ill then maybe we need to look a bit harder at how these people are still walking amongst us rather than being treated in a secure hospital

Guinness Boy · Mar 25, 2024

Flounce said:
Yeah, I imagine being in a hospital is somewhat preferable to being in prison

If the diagnosis of extreme paranoid schizophrenia is true, then he'll eventually kill again without treatment, and in prison he won't get it. Now, it could be he kills a nonce and everyone's secretly happy or he could kill someone later proved innocent who's in on remand.

Jon Ronson wrote a lot about Broadmoor in his book The Psychopath Test and it didn't read like a holiday camp at all. Isolation, forced medication, tests, abuse and being surrounded by the maddest criminals in the country 24/7.

Your original question is flawed too. The act is obviously murder. The current legal definition of his offence is manslaughter. Another case of the law being an ass. Surely better a different technical conviction than being found innocent on a technicality.

Thunder Bolt · Mar 25, 2024

I don't know what else the CPS could have done. He had pleaded guilty to 3 counts of attempted murder as well as manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. He had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

On Thursday, the CPS set out why it decided to accept a diminished responsibility plea rather than continue to push for Calocane to be jailed for murder.
The CPS said medical experts provided "overwhelming" evidence Calocane was suffering from a serious mental health condition, including hearing voices in his head telling him his family would be harmed unless he did what they told him to do.
Three psychiatrists were asked to analyse Calocane's condition and all agreed it "impaired his ability to exercise self-control".
The CPS "took the unusual step" of asking a fourth expert to review those reports, and after they agreed with the findings, prosecutors concluded there was "no realistic prospect of conviction for murder".

Thunder Bolt · Mar 25, 2024

Guinness Boy said:
If the diagnosis of extreme paranoid schizophrenia is true, then he'll eventually kill again without treatment, and in prison he won't get it. Now, it could be he kills a nonce and everyone's secretly happy or he could kill someone later proved innocent who's in on remand.

Jon Ronson wrote a lot about Broadmoor in his book The Psychopath Test and it didn't read like a holiday camp at all. Isolation, forced medication, tests, abuse and being surrounded by the maddest criminals in the country 24/7.

Your original question is flawed too. The act is obviously murder. The current legal definition of his offence is manslaughter. Another case of the law being an ass. Surely better a different technical conviction than being found innocent on a technicality.

He pleaded guilty to three counts of attempted murder as well as the manslaughter counts.

Algernon · Mar 25, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
I don't know what else the CPS could have done. He had pleaded guilty to 3 counts of attempted murder as well as manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. He had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia.

On Thursday, the CPS set out why it decided to accept a diminished responsibility plea rather than continue to push for Calocane to be jailed for murder.
The CPS said medical experts provided "overwhelming" evidence Calocane was suffering from a serious mental health condition, including hearing voices in his head telling him his family would be harmed unless he did what they told him to do.
Three psychiatrists were asked to analyse Calocane's condition and all agreed it "impaired his ability to exercise self-control".
The CPS "took the unusual step" of asking a fourth expert to review those reports, and after they agreed with the findings, prosecutors concluded there was "no realistic prospect of conviction for murder".

I would genuinely like to know how they overwhelmingly ascertain that he heard voices in his head?

Guinness Boy · Mar 25, 2024

Algernon said:
I would genuinely like to know how they overwhelmingly ascertain that he heard voices in his head?

Not possible to know 100% but is diagnosed by medical experts in the field based on a number of criteria. To be as sure as they could be they used four separate diagnosis in this case, presumably by unlinked experts, each starting from scratch. They are diagnosing the illness too - the voices are a symptom.

Thunder Bolt · Mar 25, 2024

Algernon said:
I would genuinely like to know how they overwhelmingly ascertain that he heard voices in his head?

Four expert witnesses, qualified psychiatrists, all said the same thing.

For disclosure, my ex brother in law was schizophrenic, and heard voices. He attacked his own brother, my ex-husband, luckily only cutting him above the eye, without any provocation.
We never saw him again after that.

Mental health services in this country are appalling.

Triggaaar · Mar 25, 2024

Flounce said:
Manslaughter or murder?

Where do YOU stand?

I make no apology for the title as to me this is murder and I have no time for the manslaughter charge.

So you have no respect for the rule of law in this country.

I wonder if you saw 'The Jury' on TV recently? No doubt you'd have decided that was murder within the first 5 minutes and not bothered listening to any evidence.

Seaview Seagull · Mar 25, 2024

It is obviously harrowing for the families and they have all my sympathy. However, the day we allow victims of crime to decide the penalty is the day justice goes out of the window. Or do we not after all this time actually accept someone can be mentally ill and do terrible things while they are ill?

Molango's visa · Mar 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
So you have no respect for the rule of law in this country.

I wonder if you saw 'The Jury' on TV recently? No doubt you'd have decided that was murder within the first 5 minutes and not bothered listening to any evidence.

If only we had mob rule. Everything would be so much simpler <sigh>

GT49er · Mar 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
So you have no respect for the rule of law in this country.

I wonder if you saw 'The Jury' on TV recently? No doubt you'd have decided that was murder within the first 5 minutes and not bothered listening to any evidence.

Rubbish! You could see in two minutes the charges were just a conspiracy cooked up by the police, the establishment and the chief lizards in Buckingham Palace.

Re: the real trial, I voted murder - yes, with diminished responsibility, so incarceration in a (very) secure mental institution, certainly - but he didn't kill them accidentally, so more than manslaughter in my book.

Thunder Bolt · Mar 25, 2024

GT49er said:
Rubbish! You could see in two minutes the charges were just a conspiracy cooked up by the police, the establishment and the chief lizards in Buckingham Palace.

Re: the real trial, I voted murder - yes, with diminished responsibility, so incarceration in a (very) secure mental institution, certainly - but he didn't kill them accidentally, so more than manslaughter in my book.

He pleaded guilty to 3 counts of attempted murder as well as the manslaughter charges.

Flounce · Mar 25, 2024

Triggaaar said:
So you have no respect for the rule of law in this country.

I wonder if you saw 'The Jury' on TV recently? No doubt you'd have decided that was murder within the first 5 minutes and not bothered listening to any evidence.

What evidence is there that this guy didn’t actually murder anyone in Nottingham? He was also caught on camera wasn’t he? What a silly comparison.

I have my doubts about the interpretation of the rule of law in this country too, it’s often flawed and manipulated imo. So I guess my respect is questionable

I wonder where you’d stand if it was your kids or parents who’d been murdered. I doubt you’d be sympathetic in any way towards the killer.

GT49er · Mar 25, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
He pleaded guilty to 3 counts of attempted murder as well as the manslaughter charges.

Exactly - when he tried to murder someone, it was attempted murder - so as far as I'm concerned, when he succeeded in actually killing someone, it was murder. Was his state of mind different when he tried to kill but didn't quite manage it?

Flounce · Mar 25, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
He pleaded guilty to 3 counts of attempted murder as well as the manslaughter charges.

Help me here, he pleaded guilty to attempting to murder three people but the ones he did manage to murder was manslaughter? How does that work then?

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[Misc] Nottingham murders

Nottingham murders - where do you stand?

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