[Politics] Owen Jones

hans kraay fan club · Mar 24, 2024

cjd said:
Quite an impressive list there.

Are they things you have costed properly and ways of paying for them too...?

Well, the second thing on my list was ‘higher taxation’, so that could be a clue.

But no, you have really got me there - it’s true that I have not fully costed my ideological wish list.

Although, for the benefit again of those choosing not to read what has been written - I was very clear that these are not suggestions for immediate implementation - but that rather, I‘m comfortable with supporting Starmer’s centrist agenda for purposes of ousting the appalling incumbents - and to THEN seek to steer the thinking to the left. So these are things I’d like to see some day. And as for any suggestion that it is not possible to fund them - they are almost all things we’ve had before.

pocketseagull · Mar 24, 2024

aolstudios said:
Well, exactly.
OJ is no more fundamentally 'honest' than Johnson. & his own populism, aimed precisely at his chosen audience is just as coldly cynical. 'Honest' politics, if there is such a thing, has grey areas. Quite deliberately ignored by both

He wrote this at peak Corbyn mania, one of the few people on the Left at odds with his audience.

Let me put this in stark terms. As Jeremy Corbyn is surrounded by cheering crowds, Labour generally, and the left specifically, are teetering on the edge of looming calamity. I’m not apportioning blame: there are lots of factors at play. But that’s how I genuinely feel, and it would be as dishonest as it would be irresponsible for me to suppress my actual views to try and maintain popularity among the people who read my work. I would happily sacrifice all of that if it was helpful for the things I believe in. Saying things I do not believe to be true for personal gain would reduce me to the status of a conman. All the things I do are motivated by a desire — however misplaced or wrong-headed — to make a positive contribution to politics; I can’t facilitate something harmful, even if that means saying things the people reading my work do not wish to hear.

aolstudios · Mar 24, 2024

pocketseagull said:
He wrote this at peak Corbyn mania, one of the few people on the Left at odds with his audience.

He was immediately mercilessly piled on by the Corbynite hordes (something he's since become expert in facilitating) & has since toed their line. Over & over. He's one of them now. He leads them.
The cynical, shameless bastard

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 24, 2024

cjd said:
Quite an impressive list there.

Are they things you have costed properly and ways of paying for them too...?

hans kraay fan club said:
Well, the second thing on my list was ‘higher taxation’, so that could be a clue.

But no, you have really got me there - it’s true that I have not fully costed my ideological wish list.

Although, for the benefit again of those choosing not to read what has been written - I was very clear that these are not suggestions for immediate implementation - but that rather, I‘m comfortable with supporting Starmer’s centrist agenda for purposes of ousting the appalling incumbents - and to THEN seek to steer the thinking to the left. So these are things I’d like to see some day. And as for any suggestion that it is not possible to fund them - they are almost all things we’ve had before.

“complete reform of the asylum system, immediate commencement of exploratory talks to rejoin the single market, abolishment of private schools, abolishment of faith schools, the banning of foreign ownership of UK print media, immediate striking from the books of the new laws on protesting."

These items from your list will not cost much, if anything.

As for the others, a number of other countries in Northern Europe have found ways to fund them and did so a long time ago. Just do what they do. E.g. all degrees are free in many countries, not just ones to fill labour gaps.

ClemFandango · Mar 24, 2024

hans kraay fan club said:
Well, the second thing on my list was ‘higher taxation’, so that could be a clue.

Tax levels in the UK are at their highest since records began 70 years ago .. how high do you want them to go?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2024

hans kraay fan club said:
Well, the second thing on my list was ‘higher taxation’, so that could be a clue.

But no, you have really got me there - it’s true that I have not fully costed my ideological wish list.

Although, for the benefit again of those choosing not to read what has been written - I was very clear that these are not suggestions for immediate implementation - but that rather, I‘m comfortable with supporting Starmer’s centrist agenda for purposes of ousting the appalling incumbents - and to THEN seek to steer the thinking to the left. So these are things I’d like to see some day. And as for any suggestion that it is not possible to fund them - they are almost all things we’ve had before.

Exactly my plan.

Same as it was with Blair.

That didn't pan out in the end.

But it was infinitely better than pipple like that Tory who said pipple, and Seb Coe's 'exercise chum' and that other arse that Blair beat, running the country. Blair transformed the UK. He took the **** out of Scunthorpe.

I want some more of that.

Britain doesn't have to invade Belgium, burn down the mosques, throw the Jews into the sea and win* the world cup to be Great Again.

Let's just be nice again. Caring again. Supportive again. Competitive again. Influential again. Sure-footed again.

(Some of that won't be 'again', but for the first time. Whatevers.)

*that bit was obvious low comedy. FFS.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2024

ClemFandango said:
Tax levels in the UK are at their highest since records began 70 years ago .. how high do you want them to go?

Well, that's something for the tories to boast about. Didn't see that coming.

And yet.....did anyone notice? Or care?

That's the funny thing about tax.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2024

Herr Tubthumper said:
“complete reform of the asylum system, immediate commencement of exploratory talks to rejoin the single market, abolishment of private schools, abolishment of faith schools, the banning of foreign ownership of UK print media, immediate striking from the books of the new laws on protesting."

These items from your list will not cost much, if anything.

As for the others, a number of other countries in Northern Europe have found ways to fund them and did so a long time ago. Just do what they do. E.g. all degrees are free in many countries, not just ones to fill labour gaps.

No. Let them have them. But not as charities. As businesses. Paying business rate taxes.

Oh, and also sticking to the National Curriculum.

And no banning girls from sports, or teaching that some arse-god created the universe in 10 seconds while having a wank and that physics is therefore wrong, in term time.

And a secular assembly. Religious schools can fit in religion-training after hours.

f*** them.

School is for education. Educate properly and equally (boys and girls) and then offer any amount of dib dib dob, Hail Mary and allah 'akbar in after hours or break time. The mad-but-legal bastards.

ClemFandango · Mar 24, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Well, that's something for the tories to boast about. Didn't see that coming.

And yet.....did anyone notice? Or care?

That's the funny thing about tax.

You're aware of the Laffer Curve. High taxes incentivise people not to work. Whereas lowering tax rates motivates people to earn more money, resulting in greater tax revenue. Labour are acutely aware of this, hence their reluctance to announce any tax hikes

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 24, 2024

ClemFandango said:
You're aware of the Laffer Curve. High taxes incentivise people not to work. Whereas lowering tax rates motivates people to earn more money, resulting in greater tax revenue. Labour are acutely aware of this, hence their reluctance to announce any tax hikes

The Laffer Curve is just a theory though…examples can easily be found which show it doesn’t hold in all cases.

Pevenseagull · Mar 24, 2024

ClemFandango said:
You're aware of the Laffer Curve. High taxes incentivise people not to work. Whereas lowering tax rates motivates people to earn more money, resulting in greater tax revenue. Labour are acutely aware of this, hence their reluctance to announce any tax hikes

You are assuming that Arthur, economics advisor to Reagan, neo liberal, greed is good, trickle down economics, Laffer is correct.

He just drew a bell curve on the back of a napkin and told.rich people that it was a good idea for them to be richer and people think he's f***ing Yoda.

Jesus wept.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2024

ClemFandango said:
You're aware of the Laffer Curve. High taxes incentivise people not to work. Whereas lowering tax rates motivates people to earn more money, resulting in greater tax revenue. Labour are acutely aware of this, hence their reluctance to announce any tax hikes

Of course.

And yet I still suspect most of us plebs have no idea what we pay in tax. We just want to pay less.

Anyway, I am in the high tax band and my desire to work hard and work well have nowt to do with tax. It never crosses my mind to slack off because the rate has gone up a tad. There again, I'm a Labour man.

Isn't this more about the mega rich (£1000K plus) strategizing domicile and investment wrt tax? Not the biggest game in town, Shirley?

Or......is it?

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2024

Incidentally I love the fact this thread has no loner the tiniest f*ck whatsoever to do with the eponymous thread title.

Jonesy has long since been put in the sea, and cast adrift in a beautiful pea-green boat with an owl and a pussycat. I hope he has some money and plenty of honey, but £5 won't get him very far......

What a beautiful pussy...

Apologies, I'd moved on. :blush:

crookie · Mar 24, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Of course.

And yet I still suspect most of us plebs have no idea what we pay in tax. We just want to pay less.

Anyway, I am in the high tax band and my desire to work hard and work well have nowt to do with tax. It never crosses my mind to slack off because the rate has gone up a tad. There again, I'm a Labour man.

Isn't this more about the mega rich (£1000K plus) strategizing domicile and investment wrt tax? Not the biggest game in town, Shirley?

Or......is it?

You are spot on there. I am drawn into the higher tax band because of a business I own with my brother. The better it does, the more we can take out of it,and then the more tax it pays. A bit annoying but we such it up, for the greater good of society. Hardly we are number crunching how to minimise it, and regardless, we are content to pay our obligations. I'd be surprised if we were being outlandish here, pretty sure it's only big business who aggressively go out of their way to evade tax. Any half arsed treasury should be able to clamp down in that

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 24, 2024

ClemFandango said:
Tax levels in the UK are at their highest since records began 70 years ago .. how high do you want them to go?

Tax levels are at around 35 % of GDP which isn’t wildly different to a number of historical “local” peaks going back to the 60s/70s. More interestingly there’s currently 15 countries in Europe with higher tax and most have desirable living standards ….there’s certainly scope for further rises.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Mar 24, 2024

crookie said:
You are spot on there. I am drawn into the higher tax band because of a business I own with my brother. The better it does, the more we can take out of it,and then the more tax it pays. A bit annoying but we such it up, for the greater good of society. Hardly we are number crunching how to minimise it, and regardless, we are content to pay our obligations. I'd be surprised if we were being outlandish here, pretty sure it's only big business who aggressively go out of their way to evade tax. Any half arsed treasury should be able to clamp down in that

Indeed.

Sadly HMG is about trying to convince the 90% of us between no tax and some tax that they will massively do us a massive service if we vote them in. Yes, indeedy.

I liken it to religion. As an athiest, I could go Catholic and repent on my death bed and go to Heaven, but I wouldn't be able to f*** anyone in the meantime. Except the wife (if married). I could fornicate but I'd not be able to get out of bed in time on Sunday to do the confessions.

What about Islam? Nah, all the good stuff is for after you die. Bollocks to that. My actual cock isn't that small.

Not sure what Jews do. Friday night dinner? I could manage that. But Judaism seems a bit too mysterious. I don't think I could cope with all the argumentation. Who are you to say to me (etc).

I think one of those far eastern ones would be best. Loads of sex and really good food.
Trouble is, they wouldn't let me join.

Weststander · Mar 24, 2024

Herr Tubthumper said:
The Laffer Curve is just a theory though…examples can easily be found which show it doesn’t hold in all cases.

As someone who works in the taxation field, the Laffer Curve effect absolutely is a real thing.

Business people and other decent earners alter working life behavior and arrangements to not pay higher rate, additional rate and the tax cliff at £100,001 income. Treasury specific tax change documents quantify the lower tax yield over a relatively short time from new taxes.

Example are reducing working hours, deliberately turning away business growth opportunities, tax planning eg upping pension contributions.

@Harry Wilson's tackle nailed this with there should be a higher personal allowance then a single tax rate. My idea is more nuanced with gently graduated tax rates, but that’s complicated to admin.

This would incentivise and end much of the shenanigans that goes on to prevent marginal tax rates of 60% and 45%.

clapham_gull · Mar 24, 2024

London Irish said:
He walked out when facing homophobia from very rightwing troll Julia Hartley-Brewer. It's so telling about your politics that you would take her side in this, not his.

Assume someone's politics, turn the volume up and misrepresent them. Build a non existent counter argument to fill the vacuum of your own.

.. and repeat and repeat and repeat.

You are a one trick pony son that got found out on here years ago.

Apply for a job on GBNews, it's your natural home.

heathgate · Mar 24, 2024

Herr Tubthumper said:
The Laffer Curve is just a theory though…examples can easily be found which show it doesn’t hold in all cases.

A theory not unlike a successful and equitable socialist governed country.... a flawed figment of a cheap cider addled student union activist's fevered imagination.

aolstudios · Mar 24, 2024

clapham_gull said:
Assume someone's politics, turn the volume up and misrepresent them. Build a non existent counter argument to fill the vacuum of your own.

.. and repeat and repeat and repeat.

You are a one trick pony son that got found out on here years ago.

Apply for a job on GBNews, it's your natural home.

Mr Nail, meet Ms Head

Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊

[Politics] Owen Jones

The voice of reason.

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Harry Wilson's Tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle

Active member

Well-known member

Anti-greed coalition

Harry Wilson's Tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle

Well-known member

Well-known member

Harry Wilson's Tackle

Well-known member

Legacy Fan

Well-known member

Well-known member

Share this page