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[Politics] On this day 58 years ago.
- Thread starter shingle
- Start date
Live by the sea
Well-known member
- Oct 21, 2016
- 4,718
A true hero , totally agree - even as a foreigner
jakarta
Well-known member
To say the least a controversial politician, who ratted on his party then re-ratted, amongst other misdemeanours.
However the only man for the job in World War II.
However the only man for the job in World War II.
hart's shirt
Well-known member
Great people often have great faults. To overlook or underplay them would be pollyannaish.
But the faults themselves shouldn't overrule the greatness of the person.
Churchill was a guiding light in our country's darkest hour.
But the faults themselves shouldn't overrule the greatness of the person.
Churchill was a guiding light in our country's darkest hour.
Psychobilly freakout
HellBilly
The very same Ghandi who referred to Black Africans as Kaffirs and thought they were a lower social standing to Indians ?
Two wrongs do not make a right, we could rip all historical figures to pieces if we so wished.
jakarta
Well-known member
A slight change...
I chose my wording carefully. He was PROBABLY the right man at the right time, but that suggests literally no one else could have led Britain to triumph. He was perhaps "A right man at the right time."
As a history graduate, undoubtedly Churchill is one of the most fascinating men of the last couple of centuries.
Unquestionably the right man for the right moment in the Second World War, and a true guiding figure at the nation's hour of need. Often overlooked too was his contribution to the Great War (with the notable and tragic exception of Gallipoli) at the Admiralty. The most fasctinating conversation never to have been recorded in modern history was his with Lord Halifax in the Downing Street rose garden in May 1940 after the resignation of Chamberlain as they decided who would take over from him. Had Halifax done so, the outcome of the entire war could have changed as Halifax was keener on a peace settlement with Hitler along the lines of "Europe's your domain, leave us alone with the Empire". Whatever was said, the correct decision was ultimately made.
Outside the wars, a rather mediocre politician who had a tendency to be on the wrong side of history (dismissed Ghandi, pushed for the Gold Standard, planned on sending the army in to shoot strikers in 1926, tried to shut down the NHS in the early 1950s).
Unfortunately also a figure about whom it is almost impossible to have a proper serious, grown up conversation about. A man who polarises opinion into "evil racist who personally killed millions of Indians during the Bengal Famine" or "unquestioned saint among men who personally beat the Germans with his own bare hands and embodiment of the nation", with hardly any middle ground available for an in-depth analysis of him and his actions.
Personally, I'm of the "good outweighs the bad" side, albeit I have many issues with what he did and what he believed, and certainly don't think he should be seen as beyond criticism for either by dint of what he did achieve. Sadly, I doubt we ever will be in a position to have that proper discussion as both sides are too entrenched and never the twain shall meet.
Unquestionably the right man for the right moment in the Second World War, and a true guiding figure at the nation's hour of need. Often overlooked too was his contribution to the Great War (with the notable and tragic exception of Gallipoli) at the Admiralty. The most fasctinating conversation never to have been recorded in modern history was his with Lord Halifax in the Downing Street rose garden in May 1940 after the resignation of Chamberlain as they decided who would take over from him. Had Halifax done so, the outcome of the entire war could have changed as Halifax was keener on a peace settlement with Hitler along the lines of "Europe's your domain, leave us alone with the Empire". Whatever was said, the correct decision was ultimately made.
Outside the wars, a rather mediocre politician who had a tendency to be on the wrong side of history (dismissed Ghandi, pushed for the Gold Standard, planned on sending the army in to shoot strikers in 1926, tried to shut down the NHS in the early 1950s).
Unfortunately also a figure about whom it is almost impossible to have a proper serious, grown up conversation about. A man who polarises opinion into "evil racist who personally killed millions of Indians during the Bengal Famine" or "unquestioned saint among men who personally beat the Germans with his own bare hands and embodiment of the nation", with hardly any middle ground available for an in-depth analysis of him and his actions.
Personally, I'm of the "good outweighs the bad" side, albeit I have many issues with what he did and what he believed, and certainly don't think he should be seen as beyond criticism for either by dint of what he did achieve. Sadly, I doubt we ever will be in a position to have that proper discussion as both sides are too entrenched and never the twain shall meet.
I never met him so will take your word on that
Lenny Rider
Well-known member
- Sep 15, 2010
- 5,430
It seems fashionable now for people to sully his memory and destroy his character, especially amongst a number of the millenials.
The same youngsters who would be living in a occupied one party state, with no freedom of speech or basic democracy, had it not been for Churchill's stance in WW2.
He went to school on Lansdown rd, Hove. We all knew him.
"A good day is 500 words in the morning and 500 bricks in the afternoon"
Well Winston I've but read any of your books but I have visited Chatsworth house and while I don't know if it's you it did look to the trained eye like every now and then some piss artist really f***ed up a couple of courses
Well Winston I've but read any of your books but I have visited Chatsworth house and while I don't know if it's you it did look to the trained eye like every now and then some piss artist really f***ed up a couple of courses
MattBackHome
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 11,723
Top bloke on balance, despite the hyperbole on either end of the spectrum.
People, like me, when asked who would you bump off in history often say Hitler.
I bet the Nazis would have loved to killed Churchill. He was a brilliant leader of a nation when all seemed lost. Far more than just the inspirational speeches. His style of “Action This Day” management got the Whitehall juggernaut working effectively and nimbly, his personally wooed Yanks such as FDR whilst isolationists such as Joseph Kennedy were eventually ostracised, he realised the strategic importance of aiding the USSR, he oversaw the expert allocation of military resources which were tiny compared to the Axis.
Not only that, he was ahead of his time in highlighting the evil and illegal re-arming of the National Socialists in the mid 30’s when most Brits (scarred by WW1) opted for a Giraffe stance.
The UK, all of western Europe and beyond tangibly gained from his unique abilities in a time of crisis.
As history is reappraised and revised, that cannot be taken from him.
I bet the Nazis would have loved to killed Churchill. He was a brilliant leader of a nation when all seemed lost. Far more than just the inspirational speeches. His style of “Action This Day” management got the Whitehall juggernaut working effectively and nimbly, his personally wooed Yanks such as FDR whilst isolationists such as Joseph Kennedy were eventually ostracised, he realised the strategic importance of aiding the USSR, he oversaw the expert allocation of military resources which were tiny compared to the Axis.
Not only that, he was ahead of his time in highlighting the evil and illegal re-arming of the National Socialists in the mid 30’s when most Brits (scarred by WW1) opted for a Giraffe stance.
The UK, all of western Europe and beyond tangibly gained from his unique abilities in a time of crisis.
As history is reappraised and revised, that cannot be taken from him.
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Ghandi was racist with his Indian / Coolie / Kaffir letters…….. I’m not though a fan of Churchill…… horrid man……. I don’t agree that we would have further gone down an appeasement route if he had not been given the mandate though PF.
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