Well. Not so far. They are doubling down on it.
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[News] China protests over Zero-Covid policy
- Thread starter Swansman
- Start date
I normally agree with you, but not on this occasion. There is nuance here. I don't think anyone said your typical Chinese is happy to have members of their family tortured or killed in exchange for growth. However Chinese people don't go off on one, citywide, if mere hundreds of people are forcibly relocated (to new homes, not to holes in the mud) to facilitate urban expansion/renewal. The latter is a form of human rights abuse, sure, but not all human rights abuses are the same. When I was assaulted by a policeman in 1977 it was a human rights abuse, but I wouldn't equate what happened to me to what happened to the Disappeared in Argentina.
The rumpus in China now is due to the forced lock downs that are needless and are causing great harm to entire cities. Very different gravy. The greater good, here, which the Chinese accept more readily than we do (vide NIMBYism, and the way planners capitulate to it in the UK) is clearly not being served if a whole city is locked down. To protect whom? This is a massive cock up by Xi.
- Thread starter
- #183
We're good at turning blind eyes at pretty much everything. Should we? Arguably, no. Will we? Absolutely.
Of course the uyghurs want human rights but they're 0.3% of the population. The people in UK detention centres probably also want human rights but very few is going to form an entire political opinion based on how they're doing. And in Sweden the UN has criticised us for not guaranteeing that children aren't discriminated, and some of those children probably want their human rights. But that doesn't mean the average person wants to overthrow the government and change political system... unfortunately.
- Thread starter
- #184
Yup. If that works, they're happy. But if it doesn't, I think they'll back off. But Xi is not the most predictable politician - I don't think anyone outside the CCP know how they'll deal with the situation.
Things like relocation aren’t necessarily human rights abuses. It’s standard when buying or renting a property in China that you acknowledge you can be relocated for certain reasons but you will be given a similar or better property and the opportunity to be assigned similar work if you wish to relocate your work as well.
It’s not ideal but it’s not something to protest over. If you don’t like it, you find a place that is unlikely to be subject to a CPO or equivalent.
Having said that, I do agree that Chinese citizens probably do put up with more than we would. I am not sure that is an argument for the way China treat their citizens.
- Thread starter
- #186
Don't you see the irony in saying that I believe that I'm "all-knowing" and so forth, while in the next sentence claim to know it all?
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 27,892
Thank goodness that The Range has already got its Christmas crap in to stores before this blew up.
Where have I claimed to know it all? I know a bit about China, having family there but by no means know it all.
It’s pretty obvious to anyone what happens to Chinese citizens who protest. Hardly a know it all.
- Thread starter
- #189
Ok fair enough. When did I claim to know it all then? Since you accused me of that.
We differ primarily in terms of our preferred means to the ends, I suspect.
I still like The Vote, but I understand the possibilities that having a big social media may bring. I'm very interested to see how much power the like of Musk (and Trump again) and others I have never heard of but who have billions of followers among the young (which, to me, is the under 60s) will exert.
My ex-wife used to say that democracy is outmoded (she was a hippy in the 60s) and, oddly, I am now coming round to her way of thinking, (albeit from the other side of the sphere). OK we will still have The Vote but the impact of the new influencers who are without the same clear provenance of the influencers of the past (media moguls with a transparent agenda) is interesting, and some seem to be mainly interested in disruptive change - the mechanism so popular with new technologists.
Interesting times....perhaps all times are interesting at the time.
You are consistently claiming to know more about every situation because “you don’t look at it through a western bias” or some such claim.
Righto, I’m off to get ready for shift. Thanks for today, most enjoyable.
- Thread starter
- #193
And you are consistently claiming to know more about every situation because you don't agree with meYou are consistently claiming to know more about every situation because “you don’t look at it through a western bias” or some such claim.
- Thread starter
- #194
Good luck. Serve them burgers with a smile on your face.
Indeed. But imposing our value system on another culture is arrogant. I think that the heat in this thread is missplaced. I don't think there is much disagreement between posters, on the whole, except from those who imagine that China will never be free until it has western-style democracy.
Nobody imagines that. You’re better than that kind of remark.Indeed. But imposing our value system on another culture is arrogant. I think that the heat in this thread is missplaced. I don't think there is much disagreement between posters, on the whole, except from those who imagine that China will never be free until it has western-style democracy.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,303
by that measure those actions abroad that benefit the lives of westerner are ok?
i get it, issues in China are below your line, why then make such a big stand on what the west may do or has done in the past?
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Randy McNob
Now go home and get your f#cking Shinebox
- Jun 13, 2020
- 4,451
I've also been to China many times and I don't see people oppressed or living in poverty, they have a decent standard of living like any other modern country. The negative news reports you hear are exagerated and blown out of proportion. They can just as easy criticise us for having more food banks than Mcdonalds and voting to pose economic sanctions on ourselves with a government who pretend it's good for us with politicians who's every second word is a lie
- Thread starter
- #200
I dont think they are no, most people do think its completely acceptable however - even defending it.
I'm not ashamed of what China does in China or elsewhere. I am ashamed of what Sweden with European brothers are doing abroad, because we often sit on our high horses pretending we aren't doing anything bad, and that we're supposedly electing our governments - making us responsible for what we do elsewhere.