[Politics] Voter Identification.

[lawros left foot]

Are there any countries who have gone from PR to FPTP?

 

[Chicken Run]

It's only BANTZ. I bet you're a right laugh on the slash

Have you been drinking GB, and there’s me thinking you were pulled to one side and reminded of your role as a moderator [emoji23]

 

[lawros left foot]

Unlike others such parties they have no need of PR as a vehicle to enter the mainstream. They are already in it in their province

Exactly, the only parties in favour of FPTP are the parties whose vote share would be reduced by PR.

I have voted in every election since I was 18, my vote has never meant anything because I live in a safe seat.
FPTP is anti democratic.

 

[Chicken Run]

I'm not sure why that's a bad idea. We had a coalition throughout WW2 and that did a pretty good job.

It was suggested that one of the reasons we ended up with such a bad Brexit deal is that mainland European politicians are brought up on coalitions and, therefore, their entire political lives are spent horse-trading. It means that they're very geared towards compromise. Our politicians, with the winner takes all mentality, aren't used to that amount of give and take, which is why Brexit was so badly handled on this side of the Channel.

Good point well made

 

[Chicken Run]

Exactly, the only parties in favour of FPTP are the parties whose vote share would be reduced by PR.

I have voted in every election since I was 18, my vote has never meant anything because I live in a safe seat.
FPTP is anti democratic.

Is there a way or model to determine the outcome of a GE vote in your constituency if we had PR and if so what was the result?

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

They’ve done it in France for decades. I don’t think they have to pay for them.

Given a choice between spending money on free ID cards (which the government's taken upon itself to decide we need) or spending it on pretty much anything else, I'll take the pretty much anything else option.

 

[lawros left foot]

Is there a way or model to determine the outcome of a GE vote in your constituency if we had PR and if so what was the result?

Absolutely no idea.
My constituency will always return a Tory, I don’t think it has ever been anything else, certainly not since universal suffrage came in.
I would think that if a form of PR came in that it would mean a complete change in the way the whole system is organised.
I’m not holding my breath anyway, I realise that to actually have a proper democracy, is a lot harder than paying lip service to a sham democracy.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Exactly, the only parties in favour of FPTP are the parties whose vote share would be reduced by PR.

I have voted in every election since I was 18, my vote has never meant anything because I live in a safe seat.
FPTP is anti democratic.

No, it isn’t. You just disagree with it. There are pros and cons of all systems. PR increases the power of political parties over individual or even local candidates. As such the charge of ‘anti democratic’ can equally be applied to your side of the debate.

 

[Baker lite]

I wouldn’t want PR. You just end up with coalitions.

As for voter ID... Outside of Tower Hamlets, do we need it?

Peterborough?


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[Chicken Run]

Absolutely no idea.
My constituency will always return a Tory, I don’t think it has ever been anything else, certainly not since universal suffrage came in.
I would think that if a form of PR came in that it would mean a complete change in the way the whole system is organised.
I’m not holding my breath anyway, I realise that to actually have a proper democracy, is a lot harder than paying lip service to a sham democracy.

What’s your constituency?

 

[lawros left foot]

East Worthing

 

[beorhthelm]

Absolutely no idea.
My constituency will always return a Tory, I don’t think it has ever been anything else, certainly not since universal suffrage came in.
I would think that if a form of PR came in that it would mean a complete change in the way the whole system is organised.
I’m not holding my breath anyway, I realise that to actually have a proper democracy, is a lot harder than paying lip service to a sham democracy.

a conservative area probably wont ever vote another way. thats not really a problem of FPTP though, certainly not undemocratic if returning a candidate with over 50% of the vote. you're really asking for a complete overhaul of voting system to dispense with local seats. and hopefully deliver parliaments and governments you'd prefer.

i recall there were studies on AV and STV systems at time of the referendum. changed a couple of governments over the decades, not nearly as much as people think.

 

[Baker lite]

Absolutely no idea.
My constituency will always return a Tory, I don’t think it has ever been anything else, certainly not since universal suffrage came in.
I would think that if a form of PR came in that it would mean a complete change in the way the whole system is organised.
I’m not holding my breath anyway, I realise that to actually have a proper democracy, is a lot harder than paying lip service to a sham democracy.

Exactly, I don’t think Worthing has ever been anything other Tory, the only time my vote ever meant anything was the referendum of 2016 and the European elections in 2019 that ultimately ousted May.
Edit- I rather foolishly,along with millions of others voted for Bliar in 1997, never again,not all the time I have a hole in my arse.


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[Sid in the Sharknado]

No, it isn’t. You just disagree with it. There are pros and cons of all systems. PR increases the power of political parties over individual or even local candidates. As such the charge of ‘anti democratic’ can equally be applied to your side of the debate.

I believe that most of the parties in favour of electoral reform actually support the Single Transferable Vote system, in which all votes are cast for individual candidates. It's also not strictly speaking a PR system, but does approximate proportionality if the constituency is large enough.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

a conservative area probably wont ever vote another way. thats not really a problem of FPTP though, certainly not undemocratic if returning a candidate with over 50% of the vote. you're really asking for a complete overhaul of voting system to dispense with local seats. and hopefully deliver parliaments and governments you'd prefer.

i recall there were studies on AV and STV systems at time of the referendum. changed a couple of governments over the decades, not nearly as much as people think.

Under an STV system a large number of constituencies would be merged together, which evens out the concentrations of support for any single party.

Even if 50% of people vote for a single candidate, there's an obvious unfairness in 50% of voters effectively not being represented, as well as the significant number of excess votes for the winner which could have been flushed down the toilet for all the difference they made. The aim should be for an area with 50% support for the conservatives to have roughly 50% Conservative seats, not just to round 50% up to 100% and say that Worthing's full of Tories or Sheffield's full of Labour voters, because it's just not true.

 

[Chicken Run]

East Worthing

2019 election all the other parties combined didn’t surpass Loughton’s vote, I’m not certain that’s the fault of FPTP,

2017 a different matter, the rest combined circa 1000 votes more

2015 again Loughton polled way more than all the others combined

I think your challenge is you live in an area where a clear majority are polar opposite to your political views, now if that really is a problem for you you need to move [emoji23]

 

[lawros left foot]

a conservative area probably wont ever vote another way. thats not really a problem of FPTP though, certainly not undemocratic if returning a candidate with over 50% of the vote. you're really asking for a complete overhaul of voting system to dispense with local seats. and hopefully deliver parliaments and governments you'd prefer.

i recall there were studies on AV and STV systems at time of the referendum. changed a couple of governments over the decades, not nearly as much as people think.

I’m just asking that my vote, a right that people have died for, and are still dying for in other countries, should actually mean something nationally.
I’m not clever enough to design a system that could make every vote in an election count, or be seen to count, but, there have to be a more democratic way than FPTP. Only 66% of voters actually voted in the 2019 , possibly the most important election in a generation, and how much of that relatively low turnout for the importance of the election, was down to voter apathy caused by knowing that only about 5% if that,of those votes cast could actually change anything.

Even the cheerleaders for FPTP must realise that something is seriously wrong when 43% of 66% can lead to an 80 seat majority. I suppose that the Conservatives and Labour aren’t going to rock the boat, because they are the only 2 parties who have sufficient Parliamentary votes to change the system, a system gifted to them by dint of a rigged process.
Whatever it is, it ain’t a proper democracy.

 

[London Irish]

With voter I D set to be introduced from 2023 do NSCers feel this a good thing or a bad thing?
For the record I think it will be a good thing.


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Been used in the US for ages for voter suppression particularly against black and other minority voters

 

[lawros left foot]

2019 election all the other parties combined didn’t surpass Loughton’s vote, I’m not certain that’s the fault of FPTP,

2017 a different matter, the rest combined circa 1000 votes more

2015 again Loughton polled way more than all the others combined

I think your challenge is you live in an area where a clear majority are polar opposite to your political views, now if that really is a problem for you you need to move [emoji23]

As I said earlier, Worthing is a lost cause for anyone with my political beliefs, so that ship sailed years ago. I am not talking of my personal circumstance, I’m talking of the National picture, as someone else mentions, a Tory vote is wasted in a lot of pro Labour constituencies, their vote should be as important as a Tory voter in Worthing and mine should be as important as a Labour voter in Liverpool .

Also, my local MP is politically not my cup of tea, to put it mildly, but, a friend of mine had a problem with his daughters disability, she’s quite severely physically disabled. Loughton, give him his due, was fantastic, he fought my friends daughters corner and achieved a very good outcome. I still would never vote for him, because he only did what he was elected to do, but, I do cut him more slack now.

 

[Chicken Run]

I’m just asking that my vote, a right that people have died for, and are still dying for in other countries, should actually mean something nationally.
I’m not clever enough to design a system that could make every vote in an election count, or be seen to count, but, there have to be a more democratic way than FPTP. Only 66% of voters actually voted in the 2019 , possibly the most important election in a generation, and how much of that relatively low turnout for the importance of the election, was down to voter apathy caused by knowing that only about 5% if that,of those votes cast could actually change anything.

Even the cheerleaders for FPTP must realise that something is seriously wrong when 43% of 66% can lead to an 80 seat majority. I suppose that the Conservatives and Labour aren’t going to rock the boat, because they are the only 2 parties who have sufficient Parliamentary votes to change the system, a system gifted to them by dint of a rigged process.
Whatever it is, it ain’t a proper democracy.

Beebsays 70.7% voter turnout?

That’s pretty good for any election let alone one in the middle of winter,

In my uneducated opinion the only way you don’t get a Tory is if the left of centre/left parties combine together and have a real focused campaign, it seems to me that all the time there’s too much choice then the votes get lost, I guess you’d be happy with anyone but the Tory right?

Edit just seen the turnout in 2019 was an increase in 2017

Edit turnout in Worthing East greater than Hove in the same election