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[Politics] If there was a general election tomorrow

Who gets your vote

  • Green Party

    Votes: 31 7.7%
  • Labour

    Votes: 196 48.6%
  • Liberal Dems

    Votes: 29 7.2%
  • Tory

    Votes: 117 29.0%
  • other

    Votes: 30 7.4%

  • Total voters
    403


Super Steve Earle

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2009
8,432
North of Brighton
Posting again in this discussion I just have to say to everyone who states that the UK response has been poor in respect of the virus, just read the report in today's Telegraph. If you still think the UK were slow to act spare a thought for those of us who, by choice, reside in Europe! As it's a premium article I'll c&p it;



The EU’s politicisation of Covid vaccines is turning into an economic and political black swan event. There will be a price to pay as the consequences of this profound failure unfold in 2021, and an even higher price as people start to understand why it happened.

Europe’s double-dip recession will be stretched out for another quarter. Recovery will be delayed until the second half of the year.

Thousands more companies will be pushed over the brink, threatening a cascade of defaults and raising the risk of systemic solvency across the banking nexus. Labour scarring will run deeper. Public debt ratios across the Club Med bloc will move closer to the point of no return.

It is by now widely known that the European Medicines Agency wasted two critical weeks after the UK, Canada and even America’s notoriously cautious FDA had approved the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. The agency would have wasted another week had there not been furious complaints from Berlin.

The Commission’s insistence that all EU states should then launch the vaccine at the same time after Christmas has lost yet more critical days. Germans have been subjected to the surreal spectacle of trial drills by their well-organised vaccination machine when they could have been doing the real thing. They cannot yet receive a jab made by their own start-up group BioNTech.

“Germany has bet on Europe, and lost heavily (krachend verloren),” was the headline across Die Zeit, with a pointed picture of a woman in Cardiff being vaccinated while along with a caption declaring that Germans must wait such deliverance.

The Netherlands has compounded the error by so mishandling its software preparations that it will not start vaccinating until Jan 8. If you think Boris Johnson has had a bad pandemic, take a look at Dutch wunderkind Mark Rutte. Listen to the volcanic exchanges in the Tweede Kamer.

But these delays pale compared to what is coming next year. The European vaccine alliance has failed in its one overriding purpose: it neglected the job of acquiring vaccines. Germany has just 400,000 doses of the BioNTech jab and may not receive more than 3m or 4m by late January, rising to a total of 11m to 13m by the end of March. Berlin has taken matters into its own hands and belatedly ordered more for the future but the damage is done.

A devastating report by investigative journalists at Der Spiegel entitled “The Planning Disaster” pulls away the curtain on the ineptitude of the European Commission, which drifted through the summer with much self-gratulation but little action.


Other countries ordered early, and ordered wide. Brussels picked a mix of vaccines that mostly will not be ready until the second half of 2021 at the earliest. It failed to lock in a firm order for the BioNTech jab until mid-November, long after it was already clear that this messenger RNA vaccine was a front-runner.

Even then it declined the full offer of 500m doses for the EU27. The Commission ordered just 200m, with an option for 100m more. It also turned down most of the offer from Moderna, the other mRNA front-runner.

According to Der Spiegel there had to be parity with Sanofi’s "French vaccine", which has since gone badly awry and is unlikely to come on stream before the end of 2021. "Buying more from a German company wasn't in the cards,” said one source.

You can interpret this as a case of European ideology and political correctness running amok, but there is an even worse construction: the Commission seems to have intervened in the interests of one commercial company, spending public funds corruptly in violation of its own competition law.

“Dramatic consequences are brewing for the German government,” said Der Spiegel. “Without being able to vaccinate on a broad scale, the country won’t be able to stop the virus. Which means that the fall and winter of 2021 could be similar to this year, with high infection rates, contact restrictions and lockdowns.”

Analysts at Eurointelligence go even further: “The combination of a delay of vaccine approval and a procurement policy under suspicion of prioritising producer interest would be a shock from which the EU would struggle to recover. From now onwards, Covid deaths may be EU deaths.”

In my view we are heading into a year where German popular support for the European Project will be stress-tested like never before. Two grave matters will intersect. It will become clear to all that the fundamental health security of the country has been endangered by EU politics. At the same time, monetary union will go through another spasm of tension.

Europe’s leaders have oversold the €750bn recovery fund as a springboard for Keynesian reflation. It is spread too thinly over five years to move the macroeconomic needle. Almost half of the money is in the form of loans that may never be used - except in extremis - because of the Troika-like conditions attached.

Budget plans in southern Europe suggest that much of the grant component displaces money that would have been spent anyway and therefore adds no net fiscal stimulus. Yet a third wave of Covid and further rolling lockdowns, now unavoidable, means that the overall fiscal package will have to be greater.

There is already talk sotto voce that the recovery fund will need to be much larger to avert lasting economic damage. If so, it means telling German and northern European taxpayers that they will have to dig deeper into their pockets to fund even greater transfers to the South.

The European Central Bank can shut down the price signals in the sovereign debt markets for a while longer by soaking up the bond issuance of Italy, Spain, Portugal, and indeed France, but the longer it does so, the clearer it is that the ECB is conducting fiscal policy and propping up insolvent sovereign states in breach of EU treaty law.

While the latest programme of pandemic QE lasts in principle until March 2022, the problems will surface before then. German public opinion and part of the economics professoriate will react once there are first flickers of inflation, which will occur around Easter for mechanical "base-effect" reasons and because of commodity supply constraints. You can dress up QE as an emergency tool for fighting deflation. How do you explain it if prices are rising briskly?


For now attention is on Britain’s particular travails but this is unlikely to last. Scientists working in the UK discovered and tracked the B.1.1.7 mutation because this country has done almost as much genome sequencing of Covid-19 as the rest of the world combined. As Nervtag said in its report, this mutation was particularly hard to sequence.

Covid-19 Genomics UK Consortium (COG-UK) makes these sequences available to international science, a big contribution to the global fight against the pandemic that is little appreciated in lay circles. You certainly would not know this from some of the abuse being hurled at Britain.

Italy’s health adviser Walter Ricciardi descended to inexcusable depths in suggesting that the UK knew about the virus in September (it did not not: the sample was collected in September, one of thousands of mutations) and has since engaged in a Wuhanesque cover-up.

It is possible that the mutation came from Italy in the first place for all we know. It might have come from the treatment of an immuno-compromised patient in the UK treated with neutralising antibodies, but we can’t be sure. It is too early to reach any conclusion.

The larger point is that the UK acts as Europe’s viral antennae. There has been more Covid sequencing from Wales than from the whole of France. Once EU states carry out full surveillance of the mutant strain they may discover that it has long been circulating on the Continent, explaining the parabolic surges that have caught so many governments off guard over recent weeks.

The great irony is that only the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine will be available soon enough and at a larger enough scale to prevent a disaster for Europe over the next six months. The mutation makes it even more urgent. “Right now, whether Germany fares well or not hinges on the AstraZeneca vaccine,” says Karl Lauterbach, health chief for the German Social Democrats.

The vaccine will almost certainly be approved in the UK the week after Christmas. The European Medicines Agency will have to decide whether to swallow its pride and accept an accursed product of this apostate island. My guess is that it will drag feet for faux procedural reasons until public opinion and the German Chancellor force the issue.

Whatever happens, it is going to be a very difficult time for Europe. People will notice as the UK conducts several million vaccinations a week all through January in a massive operation that draws on the best of the NHS and the British armed forces. There will be the same images in America, Canada, and elsewhere.

They will ask why the doses are being dribbled out so desperately slowly across the Continent, and when that happens Brussels will struggle to offer a credible answer. If EU elites don’t yet realise that this is going to mushroom into one of the biggest failures in the history of the European Project, they will find out soon enough.

Thanks for posting this. I saw the first para, but could get no further. I've also seen a few of the details in other articles. The EU is in big trouble. I suspect overall that Boris is going to get a few plaudits from the silent majority for getting the vaccinations out first and sealing a trade deal in a difficult month for the planet. A bumbling communicator maybe, but I'd vote him back in a heartbeat, let alone tomorrow.
 




Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
Depends on the candidates - why vote for a party rather than the individual?

Good for you - you are remaining true to the original concept of the common men electing one of their number to represent their best interests. Unfortunately, the party system has steamrollered the principle into near-oblivion and I doubt more than one in a 100 think the way you do. Individual members are coerced and bribed into following the party line - increasingly, they are forced to sign agreements to do so before they are allowed to stand. There's little point in voting for what you think is a good person if he represents a party with policies you don't like, even if you know he doesn't like them either.

We the people are partly culpable in this. Consider the fuss when representatives voted according to their consciences and beliefs in the May parliament.
 




Theatre of Trees

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
7,722
TQ2905
Posting again in this discussion I just have to say to everyone who states that the UK response has been poor in respect of the virus, just read the report in today's Telegraph. If you still think the UK were slow to act spare a thought for those of us who, by choice, reside in Europe! As it's a premium article I'll c&p it;



The EU’s politicisation of Covid vaccines is turning into an economic and political black swan event. There will be a price to pay as the consequences of this profound failure unfold in 2021, and an even higher price as people start to understand why it happened.

Europe’s double-dip recession will be stretched out for another quarter. Recovery will be delayed until the second half of the year.

Thousands more companies will be pushed over the brink, threatening a cascade of defaults and raising the risk of systemic solvency across the banking nexus. Labour scarring will run deeper. Public debt ratios across the Club Med bloc will move closer to the point of no return.

It is by now widely known that the European Medicines Agency wasted two critical weeks after the UK, Canada and even America’s notoriously cautious FDA had approved the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine. The agency would have wasted another week had there not been furious complaints from Berlin.

The Commission’s insistence that all EU states should then launch the vaccine at the same time after Christmas has lost yet more critical days. Germans have been subjected to the surreal spectacle of trial drills by their well-organised vaccination machine when they could have been doing the real thing. They cannot yet receive a jab made by their own start-up group BioNTech.

“Germany has bet on Europe, and lost heavily (krachend verloren),” was the headline across Die Zeit, with a pointed picture of a woman in Cardiff being vaccinated while along with a caption declaring that Germans must wait such deliverance.

The Netherlands has compounded the error by so mishandling its software preparations that it will not start vaccinating until Jan 8. If you think Boris Johnson has had a bad pandemic, take a look at Dutch wunderkind Mark Rutte. Listen to the volcanic exchanges in the Tweede Kamer.

But these delays pale compared to what is coming next year. The European vaccine alliance has failed in its one overriding purpose: it neglected the job of acquiring vaccines. Germany has just 400,000 doses of the BioNTech jab and may not receive more than 3m or 4m by late January, rising to a total of 11m to 13m by the end of March. Berlin has taken matters into its own hands and belatedly ordered more for the future but the damage is done.

A devastating report by investigative journalists at Der Spiegel entitled “The Planning Disaster” pulls away the curtain on the ineptitude of the European Commission, which drifted through the summer with much self-gratulation but little action.


Other countries ordered early, and ordered wide. Brussels picked a mix of vaccines that mostly will not be ready until the second half of 2021 at the earliest. It failed to lock in a firm order for the BioNTech jab until mid-November, long after it was already clear that this messenger RNA vaccine was a front-runner.

Even then it declined the full offer of 500m doses for the EU27. The Commission ordered just 200m, with an option for 100m more. It also turned down most of the offer from Moderna, the other mRNA front-runner.

According to Der Spiegel there had to be parity with Sanofi’s "French vaccine", which has since gone badly awry and is unlikely to come on stream before the end of 2021. "Buying more from a German company wasn't in the cards,” said one source.

You can interpret this as a case of European ideology and political correctness running amok, but there is an even worse construction: the Commission seems to have intervened in the interests of one commercial company, spending public funds corruptly in violation of its own competition law.

“Dramatic consequences are brewing for the German government,” said Der Spiegel. “Without being able to vaccinate on a broad scale, the country won’t be able to stop the virus. Which means that the fall and winter of 2021 could be similar to this year, with high infection rates, contact restrictions and lockdowns.”

Analysts at Eurointelligence go even further: “The combination of a delay of vaccine approval and a procurement policy under suspicion of prioritising producer interest would be a shock from which the EU would struggle to recover. From now onwards, Covid deaths may be EU deaths.”

In my view we are heading into a year where German popular support for the European Project will be stress-tested like never before. Two grave matters will intersect. It will become clear to all that the fundamental health security of the country has been endangered by EU politics. At the same time, monetary union will go through another spasm of tension.

Europe’s leaders have oversold the €750bn recovery fund as a springboard for Keynesian reflation. It is spread too thinly over five years to move the macroeconomic needle. Almost half of the money is in the form of loans that may never be used - except in extremis - because of the Troika-like conditions attached.

Budget plans in southern Europe suggest that much of the grant component displaces money that would have been spent anyway and therefore adds no net fiscal stimulus. Yet a third wave of Covid and further rolling lockdowns, now unavoidable, means that the overall fiscal package will have to be greater.

There is already talk sotto voce that the recovery fund will need to be much larger to avert lasting economic damage. If so, it means telling German and northern European taxpayers that they will have to dig deeper into their pockets to fund even greater transfers to the South.

The European Central Bank can shut down the price signals in the sovereign debt markets for a while longer by soaking up the bond issuance of Italy, Spain, Portugal, and indeed France, but the longer it does so, the clearer it is that the ECB is conducting fiscal policy and propping up insolvent sovereign states in breach of EU treaty law.

While the latest programme of pandemic QE lasts in principle until March 2022, the problems will surface before then. German public opinion and part of the economics professoriate will react once there are first flickers of inflation, which will occur around Easter for mechanical "base-effect" reasons and because of commodity supply constraints. You can dress up QE as an emergency tool for fighting deflation. How do you explain it if prices are rising briskly?


For now attention is on Britain’s particular travails but this is unlikely to last. Scientists working in the UK discovered and tracked the B.1.1.7 mutation because this country has done almost as much genome sequencing of Covid-19 as the rest of the world combined. As Nervtag said in its report, this mutation was particularly hard to sequence.

Covid-19 Genomics UK Consortium (COG-UK) makes these sequences available to international science, a big contribution to the global fight against the pandemic that is little appreciated in lay circles. You certainly would not know this from some of the abuse being hurled at Britain.

Italy’s health adviser Walter Ricciardi descended to inexcusable depths in suggesting that the UK knew about the virus in September (it did not not: the sample was collected in September, one of thousands of mutations) and has since engaged in a Wuhanesque cover-up.

It is possible that the mutation came from Italy in the first place for all we know. It might have come from the treatment of an immuno-compromised patient in the UK treated with neutralising antibodies, but we can’t be sure. It is too early to reach any conclusion.

The larger point is that the UK acts as Europe’s viral antennae. There has been more Covid sequencing from Wales than from the whole of France. Once EU states carry out full surveillance of the mutant strain they may discover that it has long been circulating on the Continent, explaining the parabolic surges that have caught so many governments off guard over recent weeks.

The great irony is that only the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine will be available soon enough and at a larger enough scale to prevent a disaster for Europe over the next six months. The mutation makes it even more urgent. “Right now, whether Germany fares well or not hinges on the AstraZeneca vaccine,” says Karl Lauterbach, health chief for the German Social Democrats.

The vaccine will almost certainly be approved in the UK the week after Christmas. The European Medicines Agency will have to decide whether to swallow its pride and accept an accursed product of this apostate island. My guess is that it will drag feet for faux procedural reasons until public opinion and the German Chancellor force the issue.

Whatever happens, it is going to be a very difficult time for Europe. People will notice as the UK conducts several million vaccinations a week all through January in a massive operation that draws on the best of the NHS and the British armed forces. There will be the same images in America, Canada, and elsewhere.

They will ask why the doses are being dribbled out so desperately slowly across the Continent, and when that happens Brussels will struggle to offer a credible answer. If EU elites don’t yet realise that this is going to mushroom into one of the biggest failures in the history of the European Project, they will find out soon enough.

http://https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/18/europe/europe-covid-vaccine-rollout-intl/index.html

This article by CNN says the opposite.
 


Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,423
Oxton, Birkenhead
Good for you - you are remaining true to the original concept of the common men electing one of their number to represent their best interests. Unfortunately, the party system has steamrollered the principle into near-oblivion and I doubt more than one in a 100 think the way you do. Individual members are coerced and bribed into following the party line - increasingly, they are forced to sign agreements to do so before they are allowed to stand. There's little point in voting for what you think is a good person if he represents a party with policies you don't like, even if you know he doesn't like them either.

We the people are partly culpable in this. Consider the fuss when representatives voted according to their consciences and beliefs in the May parliament.

But ultimately the common men voted a lot of these characters out at the next election. They followed their consciences for a short while then Parliamentary Democracy dealt with them. Everyone should be happy.
 












Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,423
Oxton, Birkenhead
I trust the Telegraph as much as the Sun which is zero. The Barclay brothers and Murdoch are birds of a feather.

Doesn’t it reference an investigation by Der Spiegel ? I have no idea whether or not it is true but I guess we will soon find out. What I would say is that whenever there are accusations aimed at the UK Government many people automatically believe them on the ‘no smoke without fire’ principle but then fail to apply the same logic in a case such as this against the EU.
 


Lenny Rider

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2010
5,492
Intrigued by the ‘other’ category, do we have an enclave of Monster Raving Looney voters or clandestine Neo Nazis ( Or UKIP for short) on NSC?
 


portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,681
portslade
Doesn’t it reference an investigation by Der Spiegel ? I have no idea whether or not it is true but I guess we will soon find out. What I would say is that whenever there are accusations aimed at the UK Government many people automatically believe them on the ‘no smoke without fire’ principle but then fail to apply the same logic in a case such as this against the EU.

It all one way traffic with some, still not over losing the referendum and then the GE to boot.
 








Questions

Habitual User
Oct 18, 2006
24,965
Worthing
I couldn't vote for this bunch of idiots currently but I think it bears remembering if Starmer and Labour had their way we'd have been in lockdown since September and given lockdowns only kick the can down the road of infections we'd be in pretty much that same lockdown now all the way until at least next Spring. Thus having an adversely negative affect on people's tolerance to the rules and massive implications for people's mental health let alone an even more devastating impact.on the economy (which we ultimately need to pay for the massive debt we are incurring and future healthcare provision).

Classic crodonioson .............the way you subtly draw them in.
 




Theatre of Trees

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
7,722
TQ2905
Link to a bitcoin site and a very dodgy security warning. No thanks - don't click on it chaps!

Thanks for the heads up just clicked the link myself and page does not exist. Not sure what has happened here - the article is still on the CNN site - certainly no intention on linking to any dodgy sites, hence why I used CNN in the first place.
 






Wardy's twin

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2014
8,503
But ultimately the common men voted a lot of these characters out at the next election. They followed their consciences for a short while then Parliamentary Democracy dealt with them. Everyone should be happy.

Indeed and there are some times when the common vote gets it wrong - Hitler, Trump , Jair Bolsonaro, Putin to name 4 and the moderates get blown away leaving the extremes to fight it out at the expense of the greater majority.

This applies as much to Labour with momentum undermining moderates as the ERG.

Extreme views don't represent the majority , they either represent either the rich & powerful or people who put political theory over people's lives.
 




Neville's Breakfast

Well-known member
May 1, 2016
13,423
Oxton, Birkenhead
Indeed and there are some times when the common vote gets it wrong - Hitler, Trump , Jair Bolsonaro, Putin to name 4 and the moderates get blown away leaving the extremes to fight it out at the expense of the greater majority.

This applies as much to Labour with momentum undermining moderates as the ERG.

Extreme views don't represent the majority , they either represent either the rich & powerful or people who put political theory over people's lives.

And who gets to decide what constitutes extreme ? The MPs in question were ‘following their consciences’ in trying to prevent Brexit. Leaving the EU is not comparable to electing in Hitler. That is entirely false and such an insult that it does rather reveal the La La Land many remainers live in.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Oh what a surprise but you trust the Mirror ?

No.

I’m not tribal in my politics. I have voted Conservative, Lib Dem and Labour in my lifetime.
I have also spoilt my paper at times saying none of the above.

It’s not like a football club where you stick with whatever your father voted, for life.
 


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