[Other Sport] Lewis Hamilton the greatest living British sportsman?

[FatSuperman]

Taking the individual out of it

'Entirely legal' is rarely the case. Its just what gets said a lot. These types of schemes are operating in a deliberately created grey area and can only be declared 'entirely legal' if and when they have been tested in court. Not sure if this one has.

The tax code is deliberately complex and can be interpreted in different ways. Strangely the richer you are the easier it is to hire people to interpret it to your advantage. So while the tax code is surely flawed, there is still a big element of individual responsibility as to how you choose to use it, when you are rich enough to have the choice.

Despite being a PAYE pleb, I am vehemently against the position many people take on this, this morality about tax reduction is ridiculous.

The government are very keen to make this sort of thing seem an 'ethical choice' issue... Lewis Hamilton (and other non-black people that don't seem to get mentioned) have chosen to avoid tax (using perfectly legal loopholes that thousands of others use). But it is in fact the government's duty to provide an unambiguous solution. If the tax code is complex, it is the people responsible for it want it that way. And it's bloody obvious why that would be.

It's the same with the COVID response. The narrative is all about the individuals not doing the right thing - they are choosing to risk us. When it's really the response that is lacking.

 

[FatSuperman]

I'd bet my bottom dollar he contributes less into his charitable foundation than he would pay in taxes if he lived in the country of the flag he proudly waves after winning a Grand prix. It's not personal to Hamilton, there are plenty before him who have picked the most soulless place in the world to reside to keep more of their money.

As an aside I also think in motor sport more than any other sport you need a massive amount of help with the equipment you are given to perform. The team that put together a car that performs so much better than the other cars on practically every circuit deserve every bit as much if not more credit than Hamilton as they make it basically a two horse race every year for the past 4/5 years. The only driver of note I think who would go down as a world class driver of other era's is Alonso who he's actually beaten on level terms.

Britain won a load of cycling medals when they had the best bikes. Jockey's win races mainly on account of the horse. There are surely dozens of sports where only a very minor difference is needed in the equipment to make a big difference. But in motor racing, there are a significant number of factors at play, against say darts. Do you not think Lewis Hamilton, and other racers, have sacrificed more to be at the top, than someone like Eric Bristow?

Lewis does not work and live in Britain. Why do we complain about him not paying UK tax specifically when we let off some hedge fund manager living in the US? Why the distinction? Do we think he should live in Britain just so he can pay tax? I don't blame him, the way he is scapegoated.

 

[amexer]

No way. Maybe because I dont fully understand F1. So many of them are great riders but can hardly think of another sport where so much reliance on equipment they are using. The difference in quality of cars in each race is huge. Give them all the same standard car that would be fun to watch.
Dont know what is equivalent in other sports.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'd bet my bottom dollar he contributes less into his charitable foundation than he would pay in taxes if he lived in the country of the flag he proudly waves after winning a Grand prix. It's not personal to Hamilton, there are plenty before him who have picked the most soulless place in the world to reside to keep more of their money.

As an aside I also think in motor sport more than any other sport you need a massive amount of help with the equipment you are given to perform. The team that put together a car that performs so much better than the other cars on practically every circuit deserve every bit as much if not more credit than Hamilton as they make it basically a two horse race every year for the past 4/5 years. The only driver of note I think who would go down as a world class driver of other era's is Alonso who he's actually beaten on level terms.

That isn't actually true. 2018 pretty much universally agreed the Merc wasn't the fastest car and that Vettel choked in a superior Ferrari. Bottas only managed 5th in the same car as Hamilton. Similar could be said in 2017 when Vettel's Ferrari finished 12 pts ahead of Bottas's Merc, Vettel was only off the podium for 6 races compared to Hamilton's 7. 2014 - 16 was a straight fight between the Mercs as this season is proving to be, and Hamilton has only once been beaten by a team mate, largely as a result of DNFs through mechanical failure.

Harking back to 2007 when Alonso and Lewis were in the same car, the Ferrari was the faster package and more reliable. Somehow Hamilton managed to finish 37 points above his team mate and win the title in only his 2nd season.



A decent enough driver can win a world title in the fastest car, but only an exceptional one can win a world title in an inferior one.

 

[Durlston]

Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Six world titles now and has won the most ranking tournaments in the history of snooker. He's still going strong since he turned professional in 1992. For those that say snooker is not a sport - his 17-16 world semi-final win over Mark Selby made him cover more miles around the table than an average footballer does playing 90 minutes on a pitch. You don't see many fat snooker players anymore.

Ronnie is the best while he has had to battle bipolar disorder for all of his adult life and being in the spotlight. An absolute sporting genius. In full flow, no one can touch him. The best for me.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Six world titles now and has won the most ranking tournaments in the history of snooker. He's still going strong since he turned professional in 1992. For those that say snooker is not a sport - his 17-16 world semi-final win over Mark Selby made him cover more miles around the table than an average footballer does playing 90 minutes on a pitch. You don't see many fat snooker players anymore.

Ronnie is the best while he has had to battle bipolar disorder for all of his adult life and being in the spotlight. An absolute sporting genius. In full flow, no one can touch him. The best for me.

He needs that 7th title as well!

 

[Pierre the Painter]

Ronnie O'Sullivan.

Six world titles now and has won the most ranking tournaments in the history of snooker. He's still going strong since he turned professional in 1992. For those that say snooker is not a sport - his 17-16 world semi-final win over Mark Selby made him cover more miles around the table than an average footballer does playing 90 minutes on a pitch. You don't see many fat snooker players anymore.

Ronnie is the best while he has had to battle bipolar disorder for all of his adult life and being in the spotlight. An absolute sporting genius. In full flow, no one can touch him. The best for me.

I concur, and he plays with a cue which every other snooker player would have access to a similar quality cue. So I know when I see O'Sullivan and what he can do how much better he is than his peers.

 

[Pierre the Painter]

That isn't actually true. 2018 pretty much universally agreed the Merc wasn't the fastest car and that Vettel choked in a superior Ferrari. Bottas only managed 5th in the same car as Hamilton. Similar could be said in 2017 when Vettel's Ferrari finished 12 pts ahead of Bottas's Merc, Vettel was only off the podium for 6 races compared to Hamilton's 7. 2014 - 16 was a straight fight between the Mercs as this season is proving to be, and Hamilton has only once been beaten by a team mate, largely as a result of DNFs through mechanical failure.

Harking back to 2007 when Alonso and Lewis were in the same car, the Ferrari was the faster package and more reliable. Somehow Hamilton managed to finish 37 points above his team mate and win the title in only his 2nd season.



A decent enough driver can win a world title in the fastest car, but only an exceptional one can win a world title in an inferior one.

I bow down to your superior F1 knowledge, I just think the mechanics and developers of the car get nowhere near they deserve for giving Hamilton a car that he can so comfortably outperform his rivals, it is a proper team sport where everyone behind the scenes deserves massive credit but only one person seems to get the credit being the driver. Again not a criticism of Hamilton just one of any F1 driver when comparing them to sportsmen in professions where it is singly their own natural ability in that said sport which defines them as great.

 

[Albion in the north]

Charles Benedict Ainslie
Most successful Sailor in Olympic history.
Multiple World and European champion across different classes.
America’s Cup winner
Still lives in Uk
Married to Georgie Thompson.

 

[amexer]

Lewis Hamilton is HUGELY underrated by the british public and press as he is black. It is that simple really, and hugely embarrassing and depressing that our country is like that.

What rubbish Is Lampty underated ?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Why do certain modern sportsmen have to get so uppity when it comes to politics? It's political correctness gone mad. I bet the BBC paid for his driving lessons.

"uppity"

Nail on head.

I'm not going to suggest the OP started this thread owing to his racism. But the merest hint of the possibility of the thought had crossed my mind.

This is Sir Stirling Moss, speaking about Hamilton in 2012: "“Lewis is absolutely top of the pile,” he says. “He’s a really exciting driver to watch, with all his late braking heroics and so forth. When you see his helmet go around it’s just thrilling - more so than many others, perhaps. He’s a real racer, not just a driver. He has a go even when it’s not strictly necessary. He’ll definitely win world championships with Mercedes."

And the rest, as they say, is history.

I personally have little time for folk who bang on about God all the time, and F1 isn't the top of my favourite sports, and I am also an old white male, but I can't think of any Brit who has achieved more in his sport over so long, and who has set records that will probably never be beaten by anyone in the world, ever. In the wider context, he seems perfectly nice, hasn't slapped women around or posted about 'the gays' in his twatter when pissed, so I find it hard to fault him.

But.....he is a bit black though, and their ain't no black in the union jack, so.....

 

[Bold Seagull]

I bow down to your superior F1 knowledge, I just think the mechanics and developers of the car get nowhere near they deserve for giving Hamilton a car that he can so comfortably outperform his rivals, it is a proper team sport where everyone behind the scenes deserves massive credit but only one person seems to get the credit being the driver. Again not a criticism of Hamilton just one of any F1 driver when comparing them to sportsmen in professions where it is singly their own natural ability in that said sport which defines them as great.

A contradiction of the sport really. 900 odd people work for Mercedes F1, but only 2 people drive the cars. However, the winning constructor always gets a trophy and is part of the presentation at each race, and the Contractor's Championship does run alongside the Drivers so there is recognition. Almost every win I've seen Lewis take he's been first to congratulate all the factory staff and the hardwork of the team. I don't think he's every presented himself as not being part of a much larger team.

Cycling is very similar in that regard, Froome, Wiggins and Thomas all won Le Tour de France, however none of them could have done it without the support of 8 other riders, and yet only the winner is celebrated.

 

[Fignon's Ponytail]

Cycling is very similar in that regard, Froome, Wiggins and Thomas all won Le Tour de France, however none of them could have done it without the support of 8 other riders, and yet only the winner is celebrated.

Dont forget Tao winning the Giro d'Italia yesterday!

 

[Pierre the Painter]

A contradiction of the sport really. 900 odd people work for Mercedes F1, but only 2 people drive the cars. However, the winning constructor always gets a trophy and is part of the presentation at each race, and the Contractor's Championship does run alongside the Drivers so there is recognition. Almost every win I've seen Lewis take he's been first to congratulate all the factory staff and the hardwork of the team. I don't think he's every presented himself as not being part of a much larger team.

Cycling is very similar in that regard, Froome, Wiggins and Thomas all won Le Tour de France, however none of them could have done it without the support of 8 other riders, and yet only the winner is celebrated.

I'm not blaming Hamilton, or saying he doesn't value the immense contribution he gets, it is just my opinion that when arguing who the greatest sportsman is and trying to compare sports I personally believe those sports where you have to almost solely rely on your own natural talent or whereby even if you have some equipment advantages there is a fairly level playing field with your peers, holds more weight to me than sports like F1 or other motorsports where by at the beginning of any given season there are probably only 2 or 3 who can win that world title because they drive a car much superior to others you are competing against. i don't think the media give the people behind the scenes the credit they deserve.

 

[jakarta]

I know next to nothing about F1 (and feel free to quote that bit in bold) but seems to me that Lewis Hamilton doesn't get anywhere near the respect he's fully earned. It's that British thing whereby we can only fully celebrate our greatest sporting heroes if they appeared in grainy black'n'white footage from the days when we only had two, or even one, telly channels. It's a bit like endlessly celebrating The War. What gives?

Sorry, why should the fact that Jim Clark raced in the grainy black'n'white days of the 1960's make a tuppence of difference?

Let us be clear Jim Clark raced (and won most of the time) in Sports Cars, Saloon Cars and F2 Cars ALONGSIDE driving in Grand Prix for almost the whole of the 1960's, plus of course winning the Indianapolis 500, none of which Lewis Hamilton has done.

Hamilton does ONE thing (very well) with a huge technical backup but he cannot be compared to Clark or the previous generations of Racing Drivers.

Nowt to do with him being black and would love to see them going head to head in Lotus 49's (one for the ITK there)...

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Sorry, why should the fact that Jim Clark raced in the grainy black'n'white days of the 1960's make a tuppence of difference?

Let us be clear Jim Clark raced (and won most of the time) in Sports Cars, Saloon Cars and F2 Cars ALONGSIDE driving in Grand Prix for almost the whole of the 1960's, plus of course winning the Indianapolis 500, none of which Lewis Hamilton has done.

Hamilton does ONE thing (very well) with a huge technical backup but he cannot be compared to Clark or the previous generations of Racing Drivers.

Nowt to do with him being black and would love to see them going head to head in Lotus 49's (one for the ITK there)...

Nobody said it did. Least not in my post that you quoted

 

[Live by the sea]

Lewis is a great driver no question but he also has been helped a lot by driving the best car on the track every race .

 

[jakarta]

Lewis is a great driver no question but he also has been helped a lot by driving the best car on the track every race .

As I have just posted, him and Jim Clark in identical Lotus 49's. I know who my money would be on.

 

[The Wizard]

Smashed his competitors in equal cars in F2/3
Beat a world champion and one of the fastest drivers in F1 history in the same car in his first season as a ROOKIE
Narrowly lost the championship in his first season as a rookie
Won the title in his second season
Dragged a dog of a McClaren car to the top of the grid
92 Race Wins
83 Pole positions
155 podiums
6(7) World titles
Wet weather master
One of the best wheel to wheel racers on the grid.
Only beaten by his team mate twice in 13 years in F1, both times pretty much down to reliability issues. (Button & Rosberg)

BUT He hired a dodgy private jet, lives in a Monaco and wears silly clothes, so I for one think he’s a scaletrix driver who drives round in circles and gets paid stupid money whilst dodging his taxes.

Not much annoys me more than people who know nothing about F1 claiming he only wins because he has the best car, clearly you never watched Lewis back when he didn’t have the best car. Senna, Mansell, Prost, Schumacher, Vettel all history makers - all drove the best car.

 

[Bold Seagull]

As I have just posted, him and Jim Clark in identical Lotus 49's. I know who my money would be on.

Difficult to know. Lewis has been fast in every motor vehicle he has raced in. He didn't always have the support of the mighty McClaren or Mercedes. He won series and championships against kids with super wealthy backgrounds and funding. It's been over half a century since F1 drivers also jumped into sports car and other racing series to race where they could. Both Lewis and Clark are both unnaturally fast in a motorcar. I'm sure it would have been a cracking spectacle.