[Albion] Recruitment Dept

[One Teddy Maybank]

No you’re definitely not the only one. You’re saying pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying - see previous post on this thread - and a few others on here.

This time last year people were falling over themseves to praise the recruitment. Also, as you say, when you break down the new signings individually, they all add something and have promise. Every single one of them have had a thread praising them at one stage this season.

Is promise enough though?


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[PILTDOWN MAN]

Am I the only one who doesn’t think the summer recruitment was that bad, and that a lot of the blame lies with the tactics more than anything?

Bernardo is a clear upgrade on Bong
Burn is a good back-up CB
Bissouma is clearly a very raw, but exciting player with a big future
Andone; when fit, looks dangerous
Jury still out on Montoya

Balogun makes a mistake a game, and Jahanbakhsh has shown absolutely nothing so far (although has hardly played in his preferred position) but for the most part the signings we made should have improved the team. The problem is we play for a 0-0 draw every week with tactics that stifle any kind of creativity or attacking intent. Mo Salah & Raheem Sterling would struggle to do much in this team when they’re playing as fullbacks for 85 minutes of the game.

You're right the creativity has been strangled to death by tactics. Our left and right backs do not defend the wide areas, the wide midfielders are expected to fulfil that role. We normally have 4 defenders in the box.

What annoys me is more weight is put on them in particular to defend thus not allowing them to find space when we have the ball.

If you watch more expansive teams they defend far higher up the pitch. The wide players are expected to fulfil this requirement but will do so in the oppositions half. Watching City v Spurs yesterday, Spurs kept getting in all sorts of trouble trying short balls from the keeper. This was due to the high pressing. We too have shown we can do this but the reluctance of manager to do so is disappointing.

We constantly concede ground and more than anything the initiative.

 

[twickers]

You're right the creativity has been strangled to death by tactics. Our left and right backs do not defend the wide areas, the wide midfielders are expected to fulfil that role. We normally have 4 defenders in the box.

What annoys me is more weight is put on them in particular to defend thus not allowing them to find space when we have the ball.

If you watch more expansive teams they defend far higher up the pitch. The wide players are expected to fulfil this requirement but will do so in the oppositions half. Watching City v Spurs yesterday, Spurs kept getting in all sorts of trouble trying short balls from the keeper. This was due to the high pressing. We too have shown we can do this but the reluctance of manager to do so is disappointing.

We constantly concede ground and more than anything the initiative.

You simply can't play attacking tactics with that squad. CH has it spot on.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

You simply can't play attacking tactics with that squad. CH has it spot on.

Exactly


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[PILTDOWN MAN]

You simply can't play attacking tactics with that squad. CH has it spot on.

Playing 10 yards further forwards isn't suddenly playing attacking football.

My question is why buy players who are proven scorers in other leagues and play them as extra defenders. Might as well play Bong and Bruno with Montoya and Benardo in front of them?

 

[Perkino]

You're right the creativity has been strangled to death by tactics. Our left and right backs do not defend the wide areas, the wide midfielders are expected to fulfil that role. We normally have 4 defenders in the box.

What annoys me is more weight is put on them in particular to defend thus not allowing them to find space when we have the ball.

If you watch more expansive teams they defend far higher up the pitch. The wide players are expected to fulfil this requirement but will do so in the oppositions half. Watching City v Spurs yesterday, Spurs kept getting in all sorts of trouble trying short balls from the keeper. This was due to the high pressing. We too have shown we can do this but the reluctance of manager to do so is disappointing.

We constantly concede ground and more than anything the initiative.

I see it very differently. We have spent a few months with our wingers not defending, they have been pushing forward trying to support the striker and left our fullbacks exposed. The analysis on MOTD last night showed the wingers had dropped deeper against Wolves and we suddenly kept a clean sheet

 

[Stato]

I'm surprised that the same manager played with such flair in the Championship compared to the negative football we have endured in the Premier League.
To just say that the gulf in standard between the two divisions is so huge that we were forced to play so negatively doesn't completely add up.
It almost seems like a complete change of personality.

Despite reputation Chris Hughton is not always a defensive manager. He is, like Rafael Benitez, a pragmatic manager. He is always about percentages and fine margins. If he thinks that the opposition is better, he will have no qualms about setting up to frustrate them. He expects hard work from everybody regardless of the position they play. The change to 4-3-3 was not as some seem to suggest, an attempt to integrate the new players, but instead a way of trying to create more going forward in away games, something that needed improving from last year. It seemed to have potential in the periods that saw us go two nil up at West ham and Fulham, but the system fell apart defensively when the opposition countered with sustained pressure. The suggestion that there was potential there if the system could be more flexible and adapt dynamically to circumstances that arise, would seem to be why he persisted with it, but it hasn't worked, seemingly because our current midfield is not mobile of flexible enough to press forward, but still cope with counter attacks against high quality opponents.

I think it unfair to overly criticise the recruitment team. We need to remember that we are always going to be seeking bargains and this doesn't guarantee a result every time. There will always have to be compromise. We will always be buying players with strengths and weaknesses and hoping that the weaknesses can be improved. If Gross had pace we couldn't have afforded him. If Ryan was taller, If Bissouma and Bernardo were more experienced. There have been glimpses with Andone and Locadia, but they have both been having to force something from nothing because of our lack of possession and support in numbers from midfield.

Jahanbakhsh is the puzzle. He is very professional and hard working, but we haven't really seen the quality that he must have had to score so many for his previous clubs. We hope that he repeats his career pattern of taking a season to settle in before kicking on, but if he cannot, we have to accept that those are the chances you take if you are trying to compete against teams with budgets larger than some countries.

Our involvement in top level football is always going to be precarious. To pretend otherwise is to create unrealistic expectations that no manager, recruitment team or group of players will be able to live up to. Us struggling to stay at this level is no mean feat. If we are still there next year, we will be one of fourteen teams who will start the season just a run of bad form, a long injury list, some buys that don't work out, or a management problem away from the bottom three. Given the focus that Bloom puts on the club becoming as self sustaining as possible, every year we manage it will make us another year stronger.

 

[chaileyjem]

Dan Ashworth earlier this year.

"If the question is: 'Who makes the decision on transfers?', it’s been really clear here at Brighton, it's always been really clear from my previous role at West Brom, the manager has to have the final say on any player coming into the first team squad.
"If the manager doesn’t like, fancy, rate a player coming in then clearly the manager is not going to play them. There are a lot of people involved in a transfer from negotiating and buying, to agents’ fees, to player contracts but ultimately it’s got to be a player that Chris feels can help his team on a Saturday.
"Paul Winstanley's done a really good job - Paul and his team have recruited some players who've been good enough to get us into the Premier League, keep us there last year and hopefully keep us there again this year."
https://www.theargus.co.uk/sport/17...h-on-recruitment-and-producing-young-players/

 

[Bodian]

Despite reputation Chris Hughton is not always a defensive manager. He is, like Rafael Benitez, a pragmatic manager. He is always about percentages and fine margins. If he thinks that the opposition is better, he will have no qualms about setting up to frustrate them. He expects hard work from everybody regardless of the position they play. The change to 4-3-3 was not as some seem to suggest, an attempt to integrate the new players, but instead a way of trying to create more going forward in away games, something that needed improving from last year. It seemed to have potential in the periods that saw us go two nil up at West ham and Fulham, but the system fell apart defensively when the opposition countered with sustained pressure. The suggestion that there was potential there if the system could be more flexible and adapt dynamically to circumstances that arise, would seem to be why he persisted with it, but it hasn't worked, seemingly because our current midfield is not mobile of flexible enough to press forward, but still cope with counter attacks against high quality opponents.

I think it unfair to overly criticise the recruitment team. We need to remember that we are always going to be seeking bargains and this doesn't guarantee a result every time. There will always have to be compromise. We will always be buying players with strengths and weaknesses and hoping that the weaknesses can be improved. If Gross had pace we couldn't have afforded him. If Ryan was taller, If Bissouma and Bernardo were more experienced. There have been glimpses with Andone and Locadia, but they have both been having to force something from nothing because of our lack of possession and support in numbers from midfield.

Jahanbakhsh is the puzzle. He is very professional and hard working, but we haven't really seen the quality that he must have had to score so many for his previous clubs. We hope that he repeats his career pattern of taking a season to settle in before kicking on, but if he cannot, we have to accept that those are the chances you take if you are trying to compete against teams with budgets larger than some countries.

Our involvement in top level football is always going to be precarious. To pretend otherwise is to create unrealistic expectations that no manager, recruitment team or group of players will be able to live up to. Us struggling to stay at this level is no mean feat. If we are still there next year, we will be one of fourteen teams who will start the season just a run of bad form, a long injury list, some buys that don't work out, or a management problem away from the bottom three. Given the focus that Bloom puts on the club becoming as self sustaining as possible, every year we manage it will make us another year stronger.

Excellent post - especially the first paragraph.

 

[twickers]

Playing 10 yards further forwards isn't suddenly playing attacking football.

My question is why buy players who are proven scorers in other leagues and play them as extra defenders. Might as well play Bong and Bruno with Montoya and Benardo in front of them?

He bought that type of player so we could play more attacking football. Chris wanted to exploit the wings, offer a more attacking midfield option and two strikers with Glenn as back up. He wanted crosses and direct attacking options. You can't fault the idea, but as ever it's a gamble in the window unless you have big cash and when it became clear they couldn't give us that edge...and Chris was patient introducing them...we had no choice but to protect the wicket.

 

[Stat Brother]

Normally the managers you mentioned watched them in person at least once (Clough allegedly didn’t for Ward though). Paisley certainly watched Hansen at Partick.




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Bob Paisley seen In Partick, shocker.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Despite reputation Chris Hughton is not always a defensive manager. He is, like Rafael Benitez, a pragmatic manager. He is always about percentages and fine margins. If he thinks that the opposition is better, he will have no qualms about setting up to frustrate them. He expects hard work from everybody regardless of the position they play. The change to 4-3-3 was not as some seem to suggest, an attempt to integrate the new players, but instead a way of trying to create more going forward in away games, something that needed improving from last year. It seemed to have potential in the periods that saw us go two nil up at West ham and Fulham, but the system fell apart defensively when the opposition countered with sustained pressure. The suggestion that there was potential there if the system could be more flexible and adapt dynamically to circumstances that arise, would seem to be why he persisted with it, but it hasn't worked, seemingly because our current midfield is not mobile of flexible enough to press forward, but still cope with counter attacks against high quality opponents.

I think it unfair to overly criticise the recruitment team. We need to remember that we are always going to be seeking bargains and this doesn't guarantee a result every time. There will always have to be compromise. We will always be buying players with strengths and weaknesses and hoping that the weaknesses can be improved. If Gross had pace we couldn't have afforded him. If Ryan was taller, If Bissouma and Bernardo were more experienced. There have been glimpses with Andone and Locadia, but they have both been having to force something from nothing because of our lack of possession and support in numbers from midfield.

Jahanbakhsh is the puzzle. He is very professional and hard working, but we haven't really seen the quality that he must have had to score so many for his previous clubs. We hope that he repeats his career pattern of taking a season to settle in before kicking on, but if he cannot, we have to accept that those are the chances you take if you are trying to compete against teams with budgets larger than some countries.

Our involvement in top level football is always going to be precarious. To pretend otherwise is to create unrealistic expectations that no manager, recruitment team or group of players will be able to live up to. Us struggling to stay at this level is no mean feat. If we are still there next year, we will be one of fourteen teams who will start the season just a run of bad form, a long injury list, some buys that don't work out, or a management problem away from the bottom three. Given the focus that Bloom puts on the club becoming as self sustaining as possible, every year we manage it will make us another year stronger.

Yep - great post.

 

[twickers]

Despite reputation Chris Hughton is not always a defensive manager. He is, like Rafael Benitez, a pragmatic manager. He is always about percentages and fine margins. If he thinks that the opposition is better, he will have no qualms about setting up to frustrate them. He expects hard work from everybody regardless of the position they play. The change to 4-3-3 was not as some seem to suggest, an attempt to integrate the new players, but instead a way of trying to create more going forward in away games, something that needed improving from last year. It seemed to have potential in the periods that saw us go two nil up at West ham and Fulham, but the system fell apart defensively when the opposition countered with sustained pressure. The suggestion that there was potential there if the system could be more flexible and adapt dynamically to circumstances that arise, would seem to be why he persisted with it, but it hasn't worked, seemingly because our current midfield is not mobile of flexible enough to press forward, but still cope with counter attacks against high quality opponents.

I think it unfair to overly criticise the recruitment team. We need to remember that we are always going to be seeking bargains and this doesn't guarantee a result every time. There will always have to be compromise. We will always be buying players with strengths and weaknesses and hoping that the weaknesses can be improved. If Gross had pace we couldn't have afforded him. If Ryan was taller, If Bissouma and Bernardo were more experienced. There have been glimpses with Andone and Locadia, but they have both been having to force something from nothing because of our lack of possession and support in numbers from midfield.

Jahanbakhsh is the puzzle. He is very professional and hard working, but we haven't really seen the quality that he must have had to score so many for his previous clubs. We hope that he repeats his career pattern of taking a season to settle in before kicking on, but if he cannot, we have to accept that those are the chances you take if you are trying to compete against teams with budgets larger than some countries.

Our involvement in top level football is always going to be precarious. To pretend otherwise is to create unrealistic expectations that no manager, recruitment team or group of players will be able to live up to. Us struggling to stay at this level is no mean feat. If we are still there next year, we will be one of fourteen teams who will start the season just a run of bad form, a long injury list, some buys that don't work out, or a management problem away from the bottom three. Given the focus that Bloom puts on the club becoming as self sustaining as possible, every year we manage it will make us another year stronger.

Spot on. The frustration is understandable, but a sustainable approach is right....the foundations in the plan we have...the stadium, the training facilities, the youth investment...if we can ride the waves in the PL whilst we gradually build capability in the team I'd be delighted.

It still seems too much criticism toward a manager for trying to indoctrinate attacking players into the PL and the squad and mitigating the short fall with sensible containment tactics. Having your cake and eating it in the PL...one day.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Er...no, change the manager and ALL those points remain which is why changing the manager is not an argument in itself.

My original point was that the problem lies with the manager and the way he deploys his team. I will copy and paste 'all those points' (my points, not someone else's points) for you:

Hughton is part of a four man recruitment tems. No player is singed without his approval. If yesterday was a 'statement' then it was 'I don't trust my own judgement'.

The new players are supposed to have brought a bit more attacking football. But he doesn't set up the play to take advantage of this. He seems to have expected the new players to slot into the horse shoe formation and transform the play from carthorse to my little pony on acid. Ain't gonna happen. So he's reverting back to the players he knows can play dull defensive for 90 minutes and, yesterday, it worked.

After we have ground out the last point needed to keep us up (assuming Colin's Blubirds get another 4) we need to elaborate or 'replace the manager' strategy quickly. If we don't we will do a Huddersfield next season. With even less pluck.

 

[twickers]

My original point was that the problem lies with the manager and the way he deploys his team. I will copy and paste 'all those points' (my points, not someone else's points) for you:

Hughton is part of a four man recruitment tems. No player is singed without his approval. If yesterday was a 'statement' then it was 'I don't trust my own judgement'.

The new players are supposed to have brought a bit more attacking football. But he doesn't set up the play to take advantage of this. He seems to have expected the new players to slot into the horse shoe formation and transform the play from carthorse to my little pony on acid. Ain't gonna happen. So he's reverting back to the players he knows can play dull defensive for 90 minutes and, yesterday, it worked.

After we have ground out the last point needed to keep us up (assuming Colin's Blubirds get another 4) we need to elaborate or 'replace the manager' strategy quickly. If we don't we will do a Huddersfield next season. With even less pluck.

1st point you've copied - he's brought in the attacking players, despite patience introducing them to PL football gradually they are still struggling. Yesterday was not the day to throw caution to the wind.

2nd point - to play attacking football with attacking players you need them to be playing in the PL at the level and pace of the PL...they are not, so see 1st point.

3rd point - it's fine to just say I don't care, I just don't want him as the manager. I won't agree with you, I think a change would send us the way of Huddersfield and Fulham, but we don't have to agree. It's okay.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Normally the managers you mentioned watched them in person at least once (Clough allegedly didn’t for Ward though). Paisley certainly watched Hansen at Partick.




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I don't understand your point. It seems a long way from the discussion. I was replying to the idiotic 'point' someone else was making, that CH has nothing to do with recruitment, and that all the players he has (presumably reluctantly) agreed to sign were foisted upon him by the people who really make all the decisions, the sinister and gormless 'recruitment' team, of which he is a mere recipient of offerings, and that he is completely blameless with respect to our underperforming team which he can hardly be expected to manage because they are not 'his' players......**** me, if any of this were remotely close to the truth then he wouldn't be fit to manage anyway on the grounds of lack of balls.

Let's get this straight. Chris may or may not spend all night on the internet searching out possible recruitments as chief coach and talent spotter. He may or may not watch a possible recruitment candidate in person. However he is part of the 4 man team that recruits, and no player is signed unless he agrees. After that, **** me again, he oversees training and coaching. He then picks the team and tactics.

There is no unsquarable circle. No historical precedent that somehow has been perverted by the malign influence of Barber. The buck stops with the manager. If we are, as many on here think, destined for endless disappointment and relegation, if not this season then next, then it is time to change the manager.

As my old man once said, how simpler do you want it than that?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

1st point you've copied - he's brought in the attacking players, despite patience introducing them to PL football gradually they are still struggling. Yesterday was not the day to throw caution to the wind.

2nd point - to play attacking football with attacking players you need them to be playing in the PL at the level and pace of the PL...they are not, so see 1st point.

3rd point - it's fine to just say I don't care, I just don't want him as the manager. I won't agree with you, I think a change would send us the way of Huddersfield and Fulham, but we don't have to agree. It's okay.

Yep. I am more than happy to disagree with you. Enjoy your day.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I don't understand your point. It seems a long way from the discussion. I was replying to the idiotic 'point' someone else was making, that CH has nothing to do with recruitment, and that all the players he has (presumably reluctantly) agreed to sign were foisted upon him by the people who really make all the decisions, the sinister and gormless 'recruitment' team, of which he is a mere recipient of offerings, and that he is completely blameless with respect to our underperforming team which he can hardly be expected to manage because they are not 'his' players......**** me, if any of this were remotely close to the truth then he wouldn't be fit to manage anyway on the grounds of lack of balls.

Let's get this straight. Chris may or may not spend all night on the internet searching out possible recruitments as chief coach and talent spotter. He may or may not watch a possible recruitment candidate in person. However he is part of the 4 man team that recruits, and no player is signed unless he agrees. After that, **** me again, he oversees training and coaching. He then picks the team and tactics.

There is no unsquarable circle. No historical precedent that somehow has been perverted by the malign influence of Barber. The buck stops with the manager. If we are, as many on here think, destined for endless disappointment and relegation, if not this season then next, then it is time to change the manager.

As my old man once said, how simpler do you want it than that?

It’s a fairly straightforward point so I am surprised you are struggling.

Whilst he is part of the final say, it’s the process prior to that.

Does he say, “I want a winger and CB?”

Is Chris then presented with a list of the top 10 Dutch footballers to choose from or is it broader?

What is the process that defines that list? When is the manager involved?

If it was me I’d want to see a potential signing play in real-time (Poyet did), after all as you are highlighting, his job rests on the success of the signing.

So whilst he does have the final say in terms, signings it is a collective responsibility and perhaps as big an issue, if the list is crap to begin with.




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[Guinness Boy]

It’s a fairly straightforward point so I am surprised you are struggling.

Whilst he is part of the final say, it’s the process prior to that.

Does he say, “I want a winger and CB?”

Is Chris then presented with a list of the top 10 Dutch footballers to choose from or is it broader?

What is the process that defines that list? When is the manager involved?

If it was me I’d want to see a potential signing play in real-time (Poyet did), after all as you are highlighting, his job rests on the success of the signing.

So whilst he does have the final say in terms, signings it is a collective responsibility and perhaps as big an issue, if the list is crap to begin with.




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The length of time we were tracking Ali J and Andone it would have been criminal if CH hadn't seen them play live at least once before they eventually signed. Montoya, on the other hand, seemed to fall in to our laps and doesn't quite fit in.

I'd seen Propper and Izquierdo play on TV for Holland and Club Brugge respectively - Izquierdo scored a worldy against Leicester. Again I'd be amazed if CH hadn't at least seen those games.

I know someone who knows Paul Trollope's wife fairly well. Apparently PT cannot watch a game of football on TV normally, has to be isolated, fully in the zone, and he's not even in the four man process.

As to the size of the list I would suggest the starting point is a budget and that budget is considerably lower than most of our rivals. It's a little like rifling through the bargain bin while your friends are all at the butcher's counter selecting fillet steak. For that I don't blame TB, who has more than done his bit as we all know. I firmly blame the Premier League, agents and the billionairres and foreign nation states who keep fiunding both.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I guess in the end it's still a learning process for the club. We went through a phase of hiring exotic foreign managers, more or less just for the sake of it. Now we're doing the same thing with players. Reckon that phase is about to come to its close. Amen!