[Politics] Important story on the Shoreham disaster today - *update, petition to stop Andy Hill flying*

[drew]

And this is the point it was as far as I'm aware the only air show over land. For how many years had it been going and people had been gathering in huge crowds by the side of the road. Looking back as you say the decision to allow the show over a busy road is madness. This is a truly tragic incident and my thoughts go out to the families of those who lost their lives.

Fairford is another over land as someone else has referred to as is Farnborough. Also, the Red Arrows regularly perform at events over land. As tragic as this was, wasn't it the first aircrash at an airshow that involved spectator fatalities since Farnborough in 1952. As tragic as the events were, considering what's involved, that isn't a bad safety record.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Jesus, you're missing my point. I'm not commenting on how his manouevre ended, I'm saying the suggestion that he a) blacked out but then b) recovered just in time to make any sort of recovery seems a bit of a stretch.

So are you saying that he was conscious but deliberately doing nothing when the plane was coming in to crash, before deliberately pulling the nose up in the belief that he was bound to be OK? If he was conscious when the plane was flying at a higher level, I would have thought he would be worrying more about trying not to crash, not about how to make the crash look good.

 

[Triggaaar]

Silly comment. Who are you going to drag into this 'debate' next as an example of someone 'obviously guilty' to make your point? Charlie Manson? Hitler?

You compare my comparison to Charlie Manson and Hitler, and accuse me of a silly comment

Just to be clear, what evidence is there against Jimmy Savile?

 

[Triggaaar]

Ejecting is quite a commitment if you believe you can finish a manoeuvre with your aircraft intact. I doubt that he would have had the time to even think about the people below because saving himself and the plane would have probably saved everyone as a default. Staying with his aircraft was not a sign of his heroism in this instance. He didn't have a choice in the timeline once he was committed to the trick.

I don't know what happened to him, or what went through his mind, but there have been several crashes at other airshows where the pilot ejects just before the plane crashes. Perhaps he thought he could avoid crashing, and ejecting would certainly see the plane crashing into the public

 

[dazzer6666]

We were forbidden by the judge to discuss the case during the trial, full stop. If it came to light that we had been talking about it with anyone, we could be found in contempt of court.

Standard for all juries.

 

[Weststander]

Standard for all juries.

Exactly.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You compare my comparison to Charlie Manson and Hitler, and accuse me of a silly comment

Just to be clear, what evidence is there against Jimmy Savile?

Physical, forensic? None. But there is a vat of testamony and circumstantial evidence (e.g., child 'stays' over, Savile boasts to some peopel he did things, later and independently child, now adult steps forward). Countless examples. I grant you all of these people could have colluded and made it all up. Bu that would be like faking the moon landings (of which, also, there is no physical evidence).

By contrast, the strength of the evidence in the Jackson case is almost homeopathic. And at the other end of the spectrum, we have the liberation and filming of Belsen (although some 'dedicated' people still say this was a hoax).

So there is a sliding scale of evidence, and you can't simply may]ke a binary division based on whether or not it was all caught on cctv.

The trouble with you, mon vieux, is that you seem to be allergic to nuance.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Bu that would be like faking the moon landings (of which, also, there is no physical evidence).

The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter has taken 50cm resolution images of the Apollo landing sites.

 

[Driver8]

The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter has taken 50cm resolution images of the Apollo landing sites.

That and the moon rock they brought back.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter has taken 50cm resolution images of the Apollo landing sites.

Easy to fake a bit of film....

 

[Goldstone1976]

That and the moon rock they brought back.

Well, yes, there’s always that...

 

[Triggaaar]

Physical, forensic? None. But there is a vat of testamony and circumstantial evidence

That sounds remarkably like the MJ case. There are a few people (were children, now adults) who testify that he abused them many many times over years. There's also all the circumstantial evidence of Jackson arranging for the boys to stay in his room every night (moving their families over to be with him, but getting them to stay separately). There's also the families of the victims witnessing the breakdowns (both the mental breakdowns of the victims, and the collateral damage to all those around them) that occurred around the time the truth came out. As well as the testimony of a member of staff who saw Jackson showering with one of the boys. Have you actually watched the documentaries?

The comment I replied to was about MJ being treated as guilty even though we weren't at Neverland. I think Savile is an excellent comparison, but you want to argue about that, and start insulting me. Go ahead.

 

[Triggaaar]

The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter has taken 50cm resolution images of the Apollo landing sites.

That and the moon rock they brought back.

I think they also placed reflector plates on the moon, and someone in the US or Mexico fires a lazer (or similar, from something akin to an observatory) to it each day, recording the time it takes for the light to come back to earth, thus accurately measuring the distance of the moon from earth (it's moving away from earth I think).

 

[Goldstone1976]

I think they also placed reflector plates on the moon, and someone in the US or Mexico fires a lazer (or similar, from something akin to an observatory) to it each day, recording the time it takes for the light to come back to earth, thus accurately measuring the distance of the moon from earth (it's moving away from earth I think).

Correct in every respect. (Except it’s laser - you didn’t expect that get through, did you?)

 

[Triggaaar]

Correct in every respect. (Except it’s laser - you didn’t expect that get through, did you?)

Can I pretend that as it's in the US (or Mexico) it's a lazer?

 

[symyjym]

I don't know what happened to him, or what went through his mind, but there have been several crashes at other airshows where the pilot ejects just before the plane crashes. Perhaps he thought he could avoid crashing, and ejecting would certainly see the plane crashing into the public

Like I said that he probably believed he could finish the manoeuvre

Ejecting would certainly see a very expensive and rare aircraft written off, compressed vertebrae and a few inches taken off your height. If I was in that position and I believed I could finish the manoeuvre with the plane intact I wouldn't eject and leave the plane to a certain outcome and possible spinal injury.

I am only writing in response to a poster who claimed that the verdict now proved that Hill was in fact a hero in this for staying with his plane. I am saying that this proves nothing of the sort because a real hero who cared about people wouldn't have started that trick below the required minimum height.

 

[Pavilionaire]

So are you saying that he was conscious but deliberately doing nothing when the plane was coming in to crash, before deliberately pulling the nose up in the belief that he was bound to be OK? If he was conscious when the plane was flying at a higher level, I would have thought he would be worrying more about trying not to crash, not about how to make the crash look good.

Of course I'm not saying that. I'm just talking about the plausibility of the brief blackout scenario, nothing else.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

That sounds remarkably like the MJ case. There are a few people (were children, now adults) who testify that he abused them many many times over years. There's also all the circumstantial evidence of Jackson arranging for the boys to stay in his room every night (moving their families over to be with him, but getting them to stay separately). There's also the families of the victims witnessing the breakdowns (both the mental breakdowns of the victims, and the collateral damage to all those around them) that occurred around the time the truth came out. As well as the testimony of a member of staff who saw Jackson showering with one of the boys. Have you actually watched the documentaries?

The comment I replied to was about MJ being treated as guilty even though we weren't at Neverland. I think Savile is an excellent comparison, but you want to argue about that, and start insulting me. Go ahead.

I haven't insulted you for ages

 

[Triggaaar]

I haven't insulted you for ages

Maybe I've got the wrong guy, sorry if so.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Maybe I've got the wrong guy, sorry if so.

No worries. I am nearly as pedantic as you....but probably more argumentative and twitchy....on occasions ...ahem