*** The official Keep Britain in the EU thread ***

[Herr Tubthumper]

im bemused why that you dont think the same competition and benefits apply further down the skill range, or why gaps arent there to be plugged either.

I was referring to a skilled work. Low-skilled work by it's very definition implies almost anyone can do it. There can't be a skills shortage because there is no real skill. You can obviously have a people shortage but this is a different arguement.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I disagree. If you have a minimum living wage, which removes salary under-cutting , the competition is then just down to the quality of the candidate. If it's a straight choice between a UK candidate and a non-UK candidate why would the UK person lose out?

Does 'quality' of the candidate really play a significant factor in jobs that require a basic skill set? I would think it's more a meeting basic competence assessment then first come first serve so numbers of applications will automatically affect your ability to get the job.

As mentioned by others the motivation of a UK citizen earning a minimum wage is likely to be lower than someone earning 10x + what they could in their country so this isn't a straightforward level playing field choice.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As mentioned by others the motivation of a UK citizen earning a minimum wage is likely to be lower than someone earning 10x + what they could in their country so this isn't a straightforward level playing field choice.

How motivated do you need to be? Just turning up on time, smiling and being positive will do the trick. Surely this isn't too much to ask. And if someone can't be arsed to do this then maybe they're not fit for the job? And if you reduce the completion as you suggest then there won't even be any need to improve one's attitude.

The UK economy needs decent wages and some completion.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

How motivated do you need to be? Just turning up on time, smiling and being positive will do the trick. Surely this isn't too much to ask. And if someone can't be arsed to do this then maybe they're not fit for the job? And if you reduce the completion as you suggest then there won't even be any need to improve one's attitude.

The UK economy needs decent wages and some completion.

It's not about having a smile or turning up on time (attitude) it's about competition between workers who on one hand are being paid the bare minimum and others who are earning a small fortune relative to their countries wages. I would think the second group are in most cases likely to be a more attractive option for an employer.

How would your job prospects look if large numbers of workers of a similar competence swamped the sector you're in I wonder. Would you be quite so accepting then?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's not about having a smile or turning up on time (attitude) it's about competition between workers who on one hand are being paid the bare minimum and others who are earning a small fortune relative to their countries wages. I would think the second group are in most cases likely to be a more attractive option for an employer.

In your opinion. One could suggest a smart smiley local person with local ties etc is a much better fit. I don't know, and you don't know. But, what I do know is fixing a minimum living wage will remove wage under-cutting in low-skill work.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

In your opinion. One could suggest a smart smiley local person with local ties etc is a much better fit. I don't know, and you don't know. But, what I do know is fixing a minimum living wage will remove wage under-cutting in low-skill work.

Well at least we can agree on that (If properly enforced).

 

[Hampster Gull]

It seems Cameron's EU talks are now coming to a head and the for and against campaign teams are assembled so I thought now is the right time to start the pro-EU debate/campaign on NSC.

For worker's rights, for the UK economy, for the greatness of Great Britain let's stay in the EU as a willing and active partner steering the UK and Europe onto better things. We're culturally and financially better off within. Let's stay.

In for me. But we need to be at the top table, rather than skulking in the corner.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

In for me. But we need to be at the top table, rather than skulking in the corner.

Agree.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well at least we can agree on that (If properly enforced).

As an aside I totally hear what you're saying but I fundamentally disagree the way to improve an economy is to kick-out people who are willing to work in it. A good strong economy needs a balance of jobs, with the rights and wages, especially those lower down the pay scale and/or vulnerable, protected.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As an aside I totally hear what you're saying but I fundamentally disagree the way to improve an economy is to kick-out people who are willing to work in it. A good strong economy needs a balance of jobs, with the rights and wages, especially those lower down the pay scale and/or vulnerable, protected.

It's not about kicking people out rather prioritising our fellow citizens who have paid into the system all of their lives while making use of a balanced, regulated immigration system that helps fill jobs where a need is identified. The current system in relation to the EU is an open door free for all which is unsustainable and hugely unpopular with the public. The economic effects are disputable as is the cultural/societal impact overall

 

[Soulman]

It's not about kicking people out rather prioritising our fellow citizens who have paid into the system all of their lives while making use of a balanced, regulated immigration system that helps fill jobs where a need is identified. The current system in relation to the EU is an open door free for all which is unsustainable and hugely unpopular with the public. The economic effects are disputable as is the cultural/societal impact overall

Good post.

 

[crookie]

The freedom of movement principle was fine when the EU was basically Western European countries with similar standards of living/benefits. Of course there was migration but it was a two-way street, apart from perhaps more coming from slightly poorer Southern European countries. The expansion of the EU eastwards was the reason why we are faced with such difficulties now. The beaurocrats and politicians who pushed for freedom of movement weren't envisaging a massive EU expansion eastwards, and the subsequent mass-migration that followed. Freedom of movement is fine as long as it's not essentially a one-way street. I don't know how many UK Nationals are working in Poland/Hungary/Czech Republic(apart from daveinprague)/Slovakia/Bulgaria and Rumania, but I imagine it is a tiny fraction of the reverse. I tried googling "how many uk nationals work in eastern europe" and all links that came up were about Eastern Europeans coming to the UK !! These massive inflows of EU Nationals from eastern Europe is simply unsustainable and anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise is deluded

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The freedom of movement principle was fine when the EU was basically Western European countries with similar standards of living/benefits. Of course there was migration but it was a two-way street, apart from perhaps more coming from slightly poorer Southern European countries. The expansion of the EU eastwards was the reason why we are faced with such difficulties now. The beaurocrats and politicians who pushed for freedom of movement weren't envisaging a massive EU expansion eastwards, and the subsequent mass-migration that followed. Freedom of movement is fine as long as it's not essentially a one-way street. I don't know how many UK Nationals are working in Poland/Hungary/Czech Republic(apart from daveinprague)/Slovakia/Bulgaria and Rumania, but I imagine it is a tiny fraction of the reverse. I tried googling "how many uk nationals work in eastern europe" and all links that came up were about Eastern Europeans coming to the UK !! These massive inflows of EU Nationals from eastern Europe is simply unsustainable and anyone who genuinely thinks otherwise is deluded

Remember my relatives standard of living in Southern Italy was actually very good before they moved to the Euro, they always had disposal income for new cars, clothes, holidays and other items, but as the years went on they have all become considerably poorer and on top of that they have to put with the influx of non EU economic migrants / asylum seekers appearing on their doorsteps.

The whole EU project is now a failure, unable to fully protect the borders to the EU Zone from outside, and unable to control the free movement of people between EU countries and it has also made it virtually impossible for any country to make any changes since it needs the vote of all other the countries first. The EU feels like a prison.

When the EU was just a handful of countries everybody pretty much stayed where they where because as you quite rightly pointed out everyone enjoyed near enough the same standards of living, there was no need for people to move, but then when all the other countries starting joining that's where it started going wrong which left the richer countries having to pay more out in things like benefits and spending more on their services to cope.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

What is the point of being on the top table if nobody on the top table is prepared to listen to you and change it to make the EU work for everyone?

 

[Hampster Gull]

What is the point of being on the top table if nobody on the top table is prepared to listen to you and change to make the EU to make it work for everyone?

We havent been there for ages, our influence has wained. We once shaped and refined it, now we hang onto the coattails and moan it doesnt work for us.

 

[GT49er]

We havent been there for ages, our influence has wained. We once shaped and refined it, now we hang onto the coattails and moan it doesnt work for us.

No we didn't. Successive Prime Ministers have had debates with and about the EU - including the revered Thatcher and her mighty handbag! - and all returned from their negotiations with nothing more than smoke and mirrors. When something's been shoved in front of them by their European masters, they've signed it (Single European Act, for example).
It was the wrong place for us to be in 1975, when a very dirty Yes campaign was fought that was a disgrace, and now the EU is a busted flush, on a par with FIFA, it's time we were out.

 

[Hampster Gull]

...and now the EU is a busted flush, on a par with FIFA, it's time we were out.

Yes, we can rely on the grea British politician to make it better

 

[GT49er]

Yes, we can rely on the grea British politician to make it better

Of course we can't. It isn't going to get better. So, out.

 

[Soulman]

THE BBC has admitted to taking a massive £2 million of funding from the European Union in the run up to the referendum.
This is not the first time the broadcaster has been accused of political bias.

Last year the BBC was slated by Scottish Nationalists, who accused the broadcaster of having an anti-independence bias in the run up to the Scottish referendum.

Earlier this year British Broadcasting Corporation news Director James Harding admitted the referendum would “test perceptions of the BBC’s impartiality”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/62...LLIONS-in-EU-cash-during-run-up-to-referendum

 

[El Presidente]

THE BBC has admitted to taking a massive £2 million of funding from the European Union in the run up to the referendum.
This is not the first time the broadcaster has been accused of political bias.

Last year the BBC was slated by Scottish Nationalists, who accused the broadcaster of having an anti-independence bias in the run up to the Scottish referendum.

Earlier this year British Broadcasting Corporation news Director James Harding admitted the referendum would “test perceptions of the BBC’s impartiality”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/62...LLIONS-in-EU-cash-during-run-up-to-referendum

As someone who works at the BBC on a regular basis, Auntie has many flaws, but it is not institutionally biased. Nick Robinson, the chief political reporter in this year's election, is a former Young Conservative leader, Nigel Farage has appeared on Question Time more than any other politician in the last five years, Jeremy Paxman did apply once to be the editor of Labour supporting The New Statesman.

It appears to me, that whatever your political leanings, giving the BBC a kicking seems to be the in thing from all areas of the political spectrum precisely because it is independent, unlike the Express, from which you take your article.

Is it 'liberal' in the sense that is supports the arts, women, minorities and so on. Absolutely. Does it screw up on occasions? Yes it does, the Newsnight Jimmy Savile issue is a prime example of a producer flexing their muscles when they should not have done so. The BBC is also pretty fair in being willing to give a right of reply, unlike many of its print based critics.

The BBC is an easy target, it's funding is a historical anachronism, but it does still attempt to apply the Reithian edict of 'Inform, Educate and Entertain' to a far greater degree than any other broadcaster IMO, unless you think that someone else does a better job?