Why a new manager will bring immediate change

[Chinman3000]

Here is a quote I thought quite relevant to us at the moment from the secret footballers book;

‘There can be an immediate turnaround in fortunes for a club that changes its manager. I won’t say that tactics have nothing to do with it but when I hear a pundit say something like, “He’s got them organised” , in reference to a teams improved results, I cringe. Often it has little to do with the hours spent on the training pitch and more to do with the players trying that much harder.

The indifferent form a team has shown previously can sometimes be put down to the fact that the players have become so comfortable with the manager that they ease off mentally and physically.’


I believe that a new manager would bring a lift to the players the fans and the whole club in general hopefully allowing us to change things around for the second half of the season before its too late.

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

I don't buy that argument I'm afraid. If the players aren't putting in the effort, that's down to them.

Sami certainly hasn't been great, but he's young and learning. I think like Gus, he wants to play one way and you've got to admire his stubbornness in the face of such bad results. He believes his system works and that the players just need to adapt to it.

I think we're good enough. I think the players are learning a totally new system which could be utterly devastating to the opposition if we get it right. There have been glimmers of brilliance for 10-20 minute periods here and there where we've honestly looked better than I've seen us in a long time. We just needed our strikers to put the ball in the back of the net.

There have also been periods where heads have dropped, shoulders have been shrugged and the team have looked like they've given up when it's not working. That part has to change.

I think this season Sami will stay, we'll finish mid-table, then next season we will push on and finish top 4.

 

[Titanic]

Or it could just unsettle them, introducing new ideas and uncertainty?

I am a firm believer in methodical planning and hard word producing results over time. As long as this is being done, I expect results to improve. If it is not, then clearly it is down to TB and the senior management in the club to identify that things are unlikely to improve, and make the change. It would be rash at the minumum, or just plain criminally short-sighted to make a panic change at this stage, based solely on a short run of poor results.

 

[keaton]

But the point is that will only work for one or two games, then (all things being equal) we'd be in the same position

 

[Triggaaar]

Are our recent results down to a lack of effort? We've had more shots than most of the division (which suggests to me the effort to get forward and create chances is there), the shots have just been woeful.

 

[Machiavelli]

Two very good posts on this thread from TwoChoicesTom and Titanic

 

[Bold Seagull]

Sami certainly hasn't been great, but he's young and learning. I think like Gus, he wants to play one way and you've got to admire his stubbornness in the face of such bad results. He believes his system works and that the players just need to adapt to it.

I think we're good enough. I think the players are learning a totally new system which could be utterly devastating to the opposition if we get it right. There have been glimmers of brilliance for 10-20 minute periods here and there where we've honestly looked better than I've seen us in a long time. We just needed our strikers to put the ball in the back of the net.

Where is the evidence for this? I started another thread last week looking for other examples of teams that play like Sami is trying to do - no one could think of any, not any successful ones at any rate, not to the extent of what we're asking our full backs to do, and then what the rest have to do to cover. These glimmers of brilliance you speak of are always tempered with being woefully exposed at the back. The goals we are conceding are the simplest we've conceded in 4 years or so. Not just mistakes, but being so far out of position in so many places across the park that teams are just passing it into our box and tapping it in. It's embarrassing.

Even if our strikers start scoring, as at Bournemouth, we're still going to concede.

I admire your optimism, but I don't think these tactics will get a side into the top 6 even if we sign 11 or 12 Premier League quality players.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Or it could just unsettle them, introducing new ideas and uncertainty?

I am a firm believer in methodical planning and hard word producing results over time. As long as this is being done, I expect results to improve. If it is not, then clearly it is down to TB and the senior management in the club to identify that things are unlikely to improve, and make the change. It would be rash at the minumum, or just plain criminally short-sighted to make a panic change at this stage, based solely on a short run of poor results.

I agree with this in principle, but is it also not criminally short-sighted of our manager not to try something else tactically? Maybe even revert to what Oscar was doing, just till we start keeping clean sheets, or maybe get more able bodied fullbacks like Bruno back?

My biggest issue that clouds my judgement is that I cannot see Sami's tactics working in the Championship. It's too fast, too physical to play a game where your full backs provide all your width. It's easy to exploit for the other team, going narrow in defence and exploiting the vacant width on the attack. Teams like Rotherham are realising they can push up high knowing our fullbacks don't have an out ball down the line. This system requires so much mental ability from the centre halves and central midfielders to cover the width, it makes the forwards and other midfielders reluctant to overlap or get beyond each other. It's a mess. It's complicated for this level and it's showing.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Where is the evidence for this? I started another thread last week looking for other examples of teams that play like Sami is trying to do - no one could think of any, not any successful ones at any rate, not to the extent of what we're asking our full backs to do, and then what the rest have to do to cover. These glimmers of brilliance you speak of are always tempered with being woefully exposed at the back. The goals we are conceding are the simplest we've conceded in 4 years or so. Not just mistakes, but being so far out of position in so many places across the park that teams are just passing it into our box and tapping it in. It's embarrassing.

Even if our strikers start scoring, as at Bournemouth, we're still going to concede.

I admire your optimism, but I don't think these tactics will get a side into the top 6 even if we sign 11 or 12 Premier League quality players.

Quite agree re conceding...but perhaps not three...after all 2 may have been avoidable....one an own goal the other a penalty because of a misjudged tackle.

 

[BigGully]

When will fans learn, losing a game doesnt mean we are useless and when we win a game it doesnt mean we are brilliant.

We are somewhere inbetween and our real level is yet to be determined.

Genuine analysis might question whether any clubs league position is a true reflection of their overall performance and its managers skillset, probably many clubs could easily switch positions from the 4th downwards.

I guess with the media driving the drama of manager sackings, players being dropped and a call for players being recruited, it is inevitable, but it is all a bit early to really judge a manager.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Quite agree re conceding...but perhaps not three...after all 2 may have been avoidable....one an own goal the other a penalty because of a misjudged tackle.

That misjudged tackle came because of pressure. It was a mistake, but it wasn't isolated as if we'd been in the ascendancy and keeping them at arms length, it came about because we were under constant pressure. That happens to centre halves when they never have a moments rest in a game. I feel for Dunk and Greer I really do. They are doing far more in a game than they should have to. At times we are playing 2 at the back. This is why the mistakes are happening. To me this wasn't an individual error, it was the result of putting ourselves under pressure.

We've made more mistakes this season than we did all of last, and possibly all of the season before that too. It isn't because suddenly the players are making unexplained individual errors, it's because no matter how well we're playing going forward, we're exposed at the back.

The mistakes will keep happening with the way we're playing. Too much pressure on our defensive players.

 

[Bold Seagull]

When will fans learn, losing a game doesnt mean we are useless and when we win a game it doesnt mean we are brilliant.

We are somewhere inbetween and our real level is yet to be determined.

Genuine analysis might question whether any clubs league position is a true reflection of their overall performance and its managers skillset, probably many clubs could easily switch positions from the 4th downwards.

I guess with the media driving the drama of manager sackings, players being dropped and a call for players being recruited, it is inevitable, but it is all a bit early to really judge a manager.

Forget the league position, forget the results, some of us are discussing the tactics in front our eyes in the games we are watching. This doesn't need to be a polarised debate as you're suggesting, and if you read what is being said you'd see that and might even be able to contribute beyond making some cliche comments.

 

[Bwian]

Are our recent results down to a lack of effort? We've had more shots than most of the division (which suggests to me the effort to get forward and create chances is there), the shots have just been woeful.

I think a lot of our current situation IS down to lack of effort/desire. The players earn their very high incomes playing football (stating the bleeding obvious I know but bear with me). They train a couple of hours a day-but not every day. The guys that 'make it big' put in extra effort on the training ground-David Beckham being a perfect example where desire and effort was greater than natural talent. He spent extra hours after team mates were long gone developing his skills. Most of our lot look like they don't even do the basics in training-how else can you explain the likes of Gardner (and others) leaning backwards when taking shots, shots that will always miss their target? To me, it looks like many of them need extra hours training. That requires effort and desire.

 

[Mr Banana]

It's the other way round. The players' efforts are admirable, but our defence is disastrous. We are the equivalent of a skilled boxer operating with a two-foot chin made of glass. Next manager must be an organiser.

 

[Seagulls1984]

The system has never worked in the history of football, it's a very simple game and sami is making it a lot harder trying to reinvent the wheel .

 

[BigGully]

Forget the league position, forget the results, some of us are discussing the tactics in front our eyes in the games we are watching. This doesn't need to be a polarised debate as you're suggesting, and if you read what is being said you'd see that and might even be able to contribute beyond making some cliche comments.

I accept that discussing teams performance is part of what fans do, but I just feel that your own unqualified view on tactics and you insistence that you have sussed it and the coaching staff have missed it, a little naive/arrogant.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I accept that discussing teams performance is part of what fans do, but I just feel that your own unqualified view on tactics and you insistence that you have sussed it and the coaching staff have missed it, a little naive/arrogant.

There is only one person being naive if you don't think a football fan is qualified to discuss his teams tactics.

 

[BigGully]

There is only one person being naive if you don't think a football fan is qualified to discuss his teams tactics.

I posted quite a passive post saying we cannot really know whether Hyppia is good or not, even our current league position doesnt necessarily give us that answer, thats all.

Your response seemed to imply I hadn't read your posts, which I hadnt, but my post wasnt in response to you anyway.

But for the record I say again that its unlikely that you have found the flaw in our play whilst our current staff havent, so you fill your boots concerning tactics but please accept that I am not going to take you too seriously.

 

[Machiavelli]

Where is the evidence for this? I started another thread last week looking for other examples of teams that play like Sami is trying to do - no one could think of any, not any successful ones at any rate, not to the extent of what we're asking our full backs to do, and then what the rest have to do to cover. These glimmers of brilliance you speak of are always tempered with being woefully exposed at the back. The goals we are conceding are the simplest we've conceded in 4 years or so. Not just mistakes, but being so far out of position in so many places across the park that teams are just passing it into our box and tapping it in. It's embarrassing.

Even if our strikers start scoring, as at Bournemouth, we're still going to concede.

I admire your optimism, but I don't think these tactics will get a side into the top 6 even if we sign 11 or 12 Premier League quality players.

It's by no means identical, but the closest I can think of is Brazil in 2002. And they won the World Cup.
The major similarity is the high and wide full-backs. The major difference is that they played with a defensive midfield two, rather than Sami's midfield which tends to have one DCM, and a LM and RM slightly in advance of this.
There's also certain similarities with 5-3-2 formations or, perhaps better, 5-2-3.
I'm not as opposed to Sami's system as you are, but think we might be better off playing two out of Holla, Ince and Toko as DCMs with the specific remit of covering the wide space left by wing-/full-backs if attacking. This to me is the major flaw with the system, and I don't think it's irresolvable. What's more I can see plenty of positives about it. But I guess I'm in a minority on here on this.

 

[Munkfish]

I don't buy that argument I'm afraid. If the players aren't putting in the effort, that's down to them.

Sami certainly hasn't been great, but he's young and learning. I think like Gus, he wants to play one way and you've got to admire his stubbornness in the face of such bad results. He believes his system works and that the players just need to adapt to it.

I think we're good enough. I think the players are learning a totally new system which could be utterly devastating to the opposition if we get it right. There have been glimmers of brilliance for 10-20 minute periods here and there where we've honestly looked better than I've seen us in a long time. We just needed our strikers to put the ball in the back of the net.

There have also been periods where heads have dropped, shoulders have been shrugged and the team have looked like they've given up when it's not working. That part has to change.

I think this season Sami will stay, we'll finish mid-table, then next season we will push on and finish top 4.

I more often than not agree with what you post, However on this I don't.

After attending, Boro, Rotherham, Spurs and Bournemouth sadly I think its time for a change, now this needs to either a change in tactics or a change in management, we are simpley not creating enough chances for our strikers, good players are looking poor in the current system, a good system should be able to make poor players good, we should play to our strengths and get back to basics and winning games.

If Sami cant see this, for me he has to go.