[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Triggaaar]

I will start the bidding with China

I think you can end it with China.

and raise you a…………can you name a major military power that doesn’t produce its own steel?

Given that (contrary to your earlier statements) the UK still produces steel, can you?

 

[Triggaaar]

I find it amusing that Putin has his own washing machine, and gets his personal guard to operate it in case of booby traps ...I can't stop chuckling

As if before that revelation we all thought Putin was doing his own laundry

 

[raymondo]

Denys interviews Jake. It's a long one but includes Jake ripping maga apart - I'm enjoying it.

Edit: very interesting from Jake that Trump cannot declare martial law across the whole country. It's a federal system, and each Governor wil make their own decision re their own national guard.

 

[SouthSaxon]

As you say it's designed to be rejected, so it will be.

The EU and allies need to work together so that the US suffers (from their tariff choices) economically to persuade them to change tack.

Agreed. And your comment reminded me of this article I read yesterday, which suggests Starmer’s “speak no evil” policy towards Trump is being challenged both from within and by those allies.

Keir Starmer urged to get tough with Trump as US tariff threat looms

PM told to be as robust as Canada with the US president as the UK stages last-ditch talks to strike trade deal

www.theguardian.com

And of this interview with David Frum. Towards the end, around 25 minutes in, he’s asked about Britain’s strategy and position:

This is not a time to be a bridge

I do find myself increasingly worrying that our cautious both-sides approach is in danger of being maintained beyond the point when it ceases to offer any benefit and starts to become damaging.

 

[SouthSaxon]

And some strong words from Phillips O’Brien on similar lines:

Europe’s devotion to the United States has left the continent, in a word, pathetic. It now has an opportunity to rebuild its strategic thinking and capabilities, and to learn again how to protect its own freedom and liberties. As Trump flirts dangerously with authoritarianism, Europe needs to save itself. If it can, Europe might also someday play a role in saving the United States.

Weekend Update #126: What Putin Probably Means

The Logistics Killing Zone; Europe Half Full Or Half Empty?

open.substack.com

 

[Triggaaar]

Agreed. And your comment reminded me of this article I read yesterday, which suggests Starmer’s “speak no evil” policy towards Trump is being challenged both from within and by those allies.

Trump is a very needy narcissist and it's usually unwise for an ally to speak badly about him, but that's not to say we don't have to economically retaliate to the tariffs. They can spin it with some BS like 'Trump wants to encourage more manufacturing jobs in the US and we have a lot to learn from him, and would like to do the same for the UK'. Say the right thing, but at the end of the day it's a trade war. Diplomats behind the scenes can work out whether the moves will benefit us all (US, EU, UK etc) long term, or if we'd be better reducing tariffs again.

So yes, we do need to act.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Trump is a very needy narcissist and it's not usually unwise for an ally to speak badly about him,

Assuming you mean it is usually unwise, I fully agree and have said this on here myself more than once.

but that's not to say we don't have to economically retaliate to the tariffs. They can spin it with some BS like 'Trump wants to encourage more manufacturing jobs in the US and we have a lot to learn from him, and would like to do the same for the UK'. Say the right thing, but at the end of the day it's a trade war. Diplomats behind the scenes can work out whether the moves will benefit us all (US, EU, UK etc) long term, or if we'd be better reducing tariffs again.

So yes, we do need to act.

Precisely. And narcissists despise weakness in others almost as much as being made to look weak themselves. Trump wants to be predatory, so behaving like prey is not a great strategy.

 

[Triggaaar]

Assuming you mean it is usually unwise, I fully agree and have said this on here myself more than once.

Yep, thanks

 

[Bodian]

Interesting (if he means it of course).

Donald Trump says he is ‘very angry’ with Vladimir Putin over Ukraine

US president tells NBC he did not like his Russian counterpart questioning Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s credibility

www.theguardian.com

 

[raymondo]

Interesting (if he means it of course).

Donald Trump says he is ‘very angry’ with Vladimir Putin over Ukraine

US president tells NBC he did not like his Russian counterpart questioning Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s credibility

www.theguardian.com

What does he mean if he THINKS the bloodshed in Ukraine is Russia's fault...who the hell else's fault is it .
I think it's mainly just posturing from Trump.
If he's angry with Putin for questioning Zelenskiy's credibility, then he should fire Musk for pushing (more than once) for elections in Ukraine.

 

[SouthSaxon]

Interesting (if he means it of course).

Donald Trump says he is ‘very angry’ with Vladimir Putin over Ukraine

US president tells NBC he did not like his Russian counterpart questioning Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s credibility

www.theguardian.com

What does he mean if he THINKS the bloodshed in Ukraine is Russia's fault...who the hell else's fault is it .
I think it's mainly just posturing from Trump.
If he's angry with Putin for questioning Zelenskiy's credibility, then he should fire Musk for pushing (more than once) for elections in Ukraine.

It’s not the first time he’s made some veiled threats about increasing Russian sanctions. I think the whole point of him saying it is to confuse the narrative.

The key point is that his actions show he’s not on Ukraine’s side. He’s trying to strong arm them into becoming an American vassal state or mining outpost. He’s cut off their support once already. The ceasefires he’s negotiated favour Russia. Statements of his and the likes of Witless favour Russia.

(I know you both know these things, but it’s worth recalling)

He’s not going to put more sanctions on Russia.

But, it’s Trump. Who knows, maybe one day he will do it and then I can reassess my views.

 

[Eric the meek]

What does he mean if he THINKS the bloodshed in Ukraine is Russia's fault...who the hell else's fault is it .
I think it's mainly just posturing from Trump.
If he's angry with Putin for questioning Zelenskiy's credibility, then he should fire Musk for pushing (more than once) for elections in Ukraine.

It could easily have been the parroting of the Russian view by the Trump team, that gave Putin the signal to try questioning Zelensky's credibility at this stage.

Trump is effectively contradicting himself. The messaging by the his team has always been confusing and inconsistent.

 

[raymondo]

It’s not the first time he’s made some veiled threats about increasing Russian sanctions. I think the whole point of him saying it is to confuse the narrative.

The key point is that his actions show he’s not on Ukraine’s side. He’s trying to strong arm them into becoming an American vassal state or mining outpost. He’s cut off their support once already. The ceasefires he’s negotiated favour Russia. Statements of his and the likes of Witless favour Russia.

(I know you both know these things, but it’s worth recalling)

He’s not going to put more sanctions on Russia.

But, it’s Trump. Who knows, maybe one day he will do it and then I can reassess my views.

Sure, I think it's just threats to try to convince NBC viewers or whoever that he's a balanced negotiator...but he clearly isn't, evidenced by his actions.
Like you, if Trump's actions change, then I'll reassess my view.

 

[raymondo]

It could easily have been the parroting of the Russian view by the Trump team, that gave Putin the signal to try questioning Zelensky's credibility at this stage.

Trump is effectively contradicting himself. The messaging by the his team has always been confusing and inconsistent.

It has been confusing, but the messaging toward Zelenskiy has been very much negative almost all the time.
If anything, Trump is trying to appear more balanced in this interview only because of the negative push back coming his way the past two weeks.
I think it's mainly bs from Trump.

 

[Bodian]

If he's angry with Putin for questioning Zelenskiy's credibility, then he should fire Musk for pushing (more than once) for elections in Ukraine.

And himself. It was he who called Zelensky a dictator.

 

[raymondo]

Post from RFU News — Reporting from Ukraine

Sweden to double military support to Ukraine to nearly $4 billion for 2025. Source: Ukrainian Military Center-Militarnyi. https://mil.in.ua/en/news/sweden-to...

youtube.com

 

[Eric the meek]

It has been confusing, but the messaging toward Zelenskiy has been very much negative almost all the time.
If anything, Trump is trying to appear more balanced in this interview only because of the negative push back coming his way the past two weeks.
I think it's mainly bs from Trump.

I could kind of get the 'deliberate unpredictability' of his behaviour, if that were the case. Keep them guessing. Put them on the back foot. But that wouldn't explain the consistent negativity towards Zelensky.

I also get the wish to be more balanced in the face of negative pushback. He needs approval.

Do I think it's mainly bs from Trump? Not always. I think there's an element of incompetence in there. Group arrogance. A tendency to not listen. But it may be the pushback that causes him to sometimes grudgingly change his mind. Hence the flip-flopping on policy?

 

[Hugo Rune]

And himself. It was he who called Zelensky a dictator.

‘That’s just Trump being Trump’ laughs one of his moronic supporters…. There is no requirement from his MAGA base to either be consistent or speak facts and truths.

But I do believe that he is slowly coming to the realisation that Putin is playing him for the absolute clown he is. Russia are not going to make any concessions. Their version of peace comes with the completed objections of their sordidly named ‘special military operation’.

Trump told the world he’d get a peace deal before becoming President which eventually became ‘the first 100 days in office’. The orange bunglecuxt is finally realising that this is virtually impossible. There is only one way to deal with an evil dictator like Putin. You punch back harder. He has never had to sort out a bully before, because he has always been the bully. Now he is stumped.

 

[raymondo]

‘That’s just Trump being Trump’ laughs one of his moronic supporters…. There is no requirement from his MAGA base to either be consistent or speak facts and truths.

But I do believe that he is slowly coming to the realisation that Putin is playing him for the absolute clown he is. Russia are not going to make any concessions. Their version of peace comes with the completed objections of their sordidly named ‘special military operation’.

Trump told the world he’d get a peace deal before becoming President which eventually became ‘the first 100 days in office’. The orange bunglecuxt is finally realising that this is virtually impossible. There is only one way to deal with an evil dictator like Putin. You punch back harder. He has never had to sort out a bully before, because he has always been the bully. Now he is stumped.

AND...he LOVES this bully, really admires his complete power . What is Trump to do indeed ...

 

[Triggaaar]

But I do believe that he is slowly coming to the realisation that Putin is playing him for the absolute clown he is. Russia are not going to make any concessions. Their version of peace comes with the completed objections of their sordidly named ‘special military operation’.

Trump told the world he’d get a peace deal before becoming President which eventually became ‘the first 100 days in office’. The orange bunglecuxt is finally realising that this is virtually impossible. There is only one way to deal with an evil dictator like Putin. You punch back harder. He has never had to sort out a bully before, because he has always been the bully. Now he is stumped.

If Trump isn't a Russian asset, and is just doing what he can for America, then he is totally incompetent.

To achieve peace he could have agreed a fair deal with Ukraine, and promised to triple arms being sent to Ukraine plus more, and made Putin aware that his best option was to stop now and come up with a way to sell it to the Russian people as success. They'll believe anything anyway.

Instead he's just got everything wrong.