[Football] Our all time league position

[Hamilton]

Sandwiched between Wigan and Oldham in 48th

Average league positions - FootballRates.com

Each English football club's average league position in history

footballrates.com

Oldham are the highest positioned non-league team.

 

[Weststander]

Interesting, thank you.

WBA have a consistently strong history, above an array of conurbations with far greater populations.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Sandwiched between Wigan and Oldham in 48th

Average league positions - FootballRates.com

Each English football club's average league position in history

footballrates.com

Oldham are the highest positioned non-league team.

A reminder to stay humble during the good times. We are not that big and not that clever.........yet

 

[Trevor]

A reminder to stay humble during the good times. We are not that big and not that clever.........yet

Correct - we are punching above our weight. Stay humble - also make sure we enjoy it.

There is an opportunity for us to become an alltime championship club in the next few years then

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Is that "average league position"? Which I would take to mean your average place in the top 92 clubs over the period.

It actually appears to be position in the 92 based on results over the given period. Hence in the Last 5 years, Plymouth come 9th, Bolton 5th and Pompey 6th.

This reflects their recent success in the league they were in at the time. Perhaps over a 100 years this is more representative, but not entirely.

 

[chaileyjem]

A reminder to stay humble during the good times. We are not that big and not that clever.........yet

We're 27th this century so far - ahead of Leicester, Wolves.. and Portsmouth, Hull, Wigan.

 

[Insel affe]

Sandwiched between Wigan and Oldham in 48th

Wigan have only been in the football league since about 1977, I guess they have been relatively successful since then probably only been relegated about 5 times in their history, we must have been relegated about 9 or 10 times and those years at the foot of pyramid surely cost us quite a few places, time to catch up eh.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

I had a look at calculating actual positions each season and then making an average from that. But the number of leagues, the nature of the competition and the variation in the number of teams in each league make it really difficult. Maybe that's one for the long Xmas holidays.

Edit: I did some dirty maths and got this:

I've only looked at the data from 1958, when there have been four comparable leagues (Div 3 N and S previosuly, so not possible to compare).

You can see the inexorable rise since the dark days at the end of the last century.

But across the whole period, our average league position has been 44th.

 

[Stato]

Something up with the method there. Wigan Athletic didn't join the league until 1978. We joined the third division in 1920. So for 58 years we were definitely higher up the pyramid than Wigan. They are a placed above us calculating their record from 1978 onwards without any weighting for them not being in the league before that. If you drill down to the individual club records you see that they've spent eight seasons in the first tier, compared with our twelve and eight seasons in the second tier compared with our twenty four. The calculation gives them an artificially high position because of the seasons they spent outside of the football league.

 

[Brian Fantana]

Something up with the method there. Wigan Athletic didn't join the league until 1978. We joined the third division in 1920. So for 58 years we were definitely higher up the pyramid than Wigan. They are a placed above us calculating their record from 1978 onwards without any weighting for them not being in the league before that. If you drill down to the individual club records you see that they've spent eight seasons in the first tier, compared with our twelve and eight seasons in the second tier compared with our twenty four. The calculation gives them an artificially high position because of the seasons they spent outside of the football league.

Excellent points. Really embracing your username there too, bravo!

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

Something up with the method there. Wigan Athletic didn't join the league until 1978. We joined the third division in 1920. So for 58 years we were definitely higher up the pyramid than Wigan. They are a placed above us calculating their record from 1978 onwards without any weighting for them not being in the league before that. If you drill down to the individual club records you see that they've spent eight seasons in the first tier, compared with our twelve and eight seasons in the second tier compared with our twenty four. The calculation gives them an artificially high position because of the seasons they spent outside of the football league.

I'm not sure that's right because I don;t think that is what it is measuring. It actually appears to be simply saying how many wins, draws and defeats and applying points to that and making a table. Which is patently nonsense because you could be top of their tble if all you ever did was come 4th in the lowest division (ie lots of wins in a less competitive division, but no promotions to put you in a harder competition)

 

[Brovion]

Don't forget football didn't start until 1992. I think we'd be higher if the 'non-league' era is discounted.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

I'm not sure that's right because I don;t think that is what it is measuring. It actually appears to be simply saying how many wins, draws and defeats and applying points to that and making a table. Which is patently nonsense because you could be top of their tble if all you ever did was come 4th in the lowest division (ie lots of wins in a less competitive division, but no promotions to put you in a harder competition)

For the average league position table I assume they've simply taken the finishing position at the end of each season as a value between 1 and 92 (or 1 and 68 for the days of Div 3 North/South) added them together and then divided that by the number of seasons to produce a mean average.

 

[Couldn't Be Hyypia]

For the average league position table I assume they've simply taken the finishing position at the end of each season as a value between 1 and 92 (or 1 and 68 for the days of Div 3 North/South) added them together and then divided that by the number of seasons to produce a mean average.

Ah yes - I didn't see that table. Could have saved me a fair bit of maffs!!

 

[Insel affe]

Something up with the method there. Wigan Athletic didn't join the league until 1978. We joined the third division in 1920. So for 58 years we were definitely higher up the pyramid than Wigan. They are a placed above us calculating their record from 1978 onwards without any weighting for them not being in the league before that. If you drill down to the individual club records you see that they've spent eight seasons in the first tier, compared with our twelve and eight seasons in the second tier compared with our twenty four. The calculation gives them an artificially high position because of the seasons they spent outside of the football league.

Kinda what I was implying in post 7

 

[el punal]

A reminder to stay humble during the good times. We are not that big and not that clever.........yet

Better tell Rory Jennings that.

 

[Stato]

I'm not sure that's right because I don;t think that is what it is measuring. It actually appears to be simply saying how many wins, draws and defeats and applying points to that and making a table. Which is patently nonsense because you could be top of their tble if all you ever did was come 4th in the lowest division (ie lots of wins in a less competitive division, but no promotions to put you in a harder competition)

I don't think it can be doing that as it has Liverpool top of the average league positions table, but behind Man United on the all time league table. Man United have won and drawn more games, but also lost more games. Their position has been calculated on 122 seasons, compared with Liverpool's 121. If you click on a club's name it takes you to their invididual record and allows you to click on their all time record.

A quick and dirty calculation made me think that they had taken the number from the position column in that table, adjusted any figure that relates to a lower tier by adding the number of top tier teams there would have been that season and dividing the total by the club's number of seasons. However taking Everton as a test case has this slightly out. They've only spent 4 seasons outside of the top tier and there were 22 teams above them in each of those seasons. Adding 22 to those 4, totalling up and dividing by the seasons they've been in the league gives an average position of 10.007, (or 9.96 if you don't include the current unfinished season). Their number for Everton is 9.86.

Weirdly, whereas Wigan's record is measured back only to 1978/79, the year they entered the 4th tier, Boston United's includes a load of seasons that they spent outside of the top four tiers.

It's complicated to calculate non league standings before the introduction of a non regional fifth tier, but to do it in some cases and to not do it in other cases does not make sense. Without an explanation of method, it appears an inconsistent piece of work.

 

[Stato]

Kinda what I was implying in post 7

Yes, I read yours after I'd finished writing and posting mine. The disadvantage of my not being able to sum things up succinctly.

 

[ConfusedGloryHunter]

There is only one ranking system that is 100% scientifically correct.

1. Brighton = brilliant
2. All others = shit

So it is close, but we are top.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I prefer this table:

1. Division - All-time league table

1. Division » All-time league table, always up to date

www.worldfootball.net

Mainly because I like to contemplate how Darwen managed to accrue a goal difference of -120 in just 56 games, of which they actually lost 37.

Edit: I also like that Chelsea are the only team out of those we commonly think of as the "big" clubs who have a negative top flight goal difference.