[News] Public Sector Pay Rises

[Mo Gosfield]

It's still not fair, because anything below inflation is a pay cut - so 6.5 is not a pay rise, it is at least a 1% pay cut.

Its probably better than a lot of workers in the private sector, who are getting absolutely no pay rises and haven't done for some time.

 

[Goldstone Guy]

No they are not all consultants.

I really can’t be bothered to find more links than this but…

Junior doctor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“Doctors typically may be junior doctors for 8–20 years.”

As well as "junior" doctors being in training for years some become "staff grade" doctors (or at least that's what it used to be called) - doctors who aren't on a training scheme, remain staff grades indefinitely and don't reach consultant level.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Eeees complicated.

experience as a school governor many years ago brought the experience that the government sets the pay rise, but doesn’t give you the funding to pay for it.

as I understand it the teachers’ rise is only partly funded, so economies will have to be made elsewhere in schools to pay for it, meaning either reductions in staff or schools being even worse equipped, or maintenance falling even further behind. The teachers pay might be better, but the buildings they work in are falling apart.

It’s not just about pay. It’s about proper overall funding of public services. There has been loads on TV news over the last few days about the disgusting state of some hospital buildings. Being paid well is one thing, not that these pay rises are enough with the current economic climate, but if your work/building is still badly funded/falling apart……

 

[Mo Gosfield]

I have never known such despair in the private sector, amongst SME's, as there is at this time. Confidence is on the floor, costs have spiralled out of control and business owners are refusing to put any more savings/reserves into their businesses. Its crisis point.
Some have experienced 300% increases in utility costs. Talking to a local butcher recently, he told me that his electric bill had gone from £1500 per month to £3000 per month. That is an extra £18,000 per year. So he has to do another £350 in net profit per week to try and cover this. He won't.
I have a partnership in a fast food outlet. Our gas and electric was approx £8500 p.a. Now, £23,000 p.a.
Raw material costs are constantly rising. Landlords continue to put rents up. Wages stagnate, as business owners spend all their income on covering costs. Owners don't take wages and try to live off savings. Its a battle for pure survival.
Large industry, particularly in hospitality and retail grocery, now pay well over the odds for 16 - 18 year olds, to try and recruit. For the smaller operator, these rates are too high to compete with. The corporations squeeze the small guys, ensuring that they attract the casual/part-time/flexi workers that the sector relies heavily on.
35% pay demands in the public sector are laughable given the current economic climate. Rises in the region of 5-8% are acceptable but as usual, all emphasis is directed at public sector workers. There is no balance in our economy. The small and medium sized businesses ( over 4 million of them ) are cast adrift and left to fend for themselves. They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I think this might involve the very rich giving themselves slightly smaller pay rises.
And that, obviously, is impossible.

Exactly this!

plenty of senior management get ridiculous pay rises and bonuses when they are not actually doing the job very well at all - the Post Office? Thames Water? To name but two.
And it was said fairly recently that mammoth pay rises for top earners are inflationary, which is precisely one of the reasons the Government haven’t wanted to give ordinary people decent (inflation matching) pay rises.

The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. ‘‘Twas ever thus. The programme that Paul Barber was on yesterday about Britain‘s most expensive properties talked constantly about the super-rich…… Paul Barber’s flat was BY FAR the cheapest thing they were talking about……. So how about a bit of “from each according to his means, to each according to his (or her) needs.” You know it makes sense.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I have never known such despair in the private sector, amongst SME's, as there is at this time. Confidence is on the floor, costs have spiralled out of control and business owners are refusing to put any more savings/reserves into their businesses. Its crisis point.
Some have experienced 300% increases in utility costs. Talking to a local butcher recently, he told me that his electric bill had gone from £1500 per month to £3000 per month. That is an extra £18,000 per year. So he has to do another £350 in net profit per week to try and cover this. He won't.
I have a partnership in a fast food outlet. Our gas and electric was approx £8500 p.a. Now, £23,000 p.a.
Raw material costs are constantly rising. Landlords continue to put rents up. Wages stagnate, as business owners spend all their income on covering costs. Owners don't take wages and try to live off savings. Its a battle for pure survival.
Large industry, particularly in hospitality and retail grocery, now pay well over the odds for 16 - 18 year olds, to try and recruit. For the smaller operator, these rates are too high to compete with. The corporations squeeze the small guys, ensuring that they attract the casual/part-time/flexi workers that the sector relies heavily on.
35% pay demands in the public sector are laughable given the current economic climate. Rises in the region of 5-8% are acceptable but as usual, all emphasis is directed at public sector workers. There is no balance in our economy. The small and medium sized businesses ( over 4 million of them ) are cast adrift and left to fend for themselves. They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

Again, you've failed to read the detail. The Government are not fully funding this, so there will be yet further cuts in the public sector workforce and the still 'leaner' workforce that you're obviously so desperate for despite the last decade.

At least you're getting the Government and economy you wanted and voted for, others are suffering through no fault of their own

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I have never known such despair in the private sector, amongst SME's, as there is at this time. Confidence is on the floor, costs have spiralled out of control and business owners are refusing to put any more savings/reserves into their businesses. Its crisis point.
Some have experienced 300% increases in utility costs. Talking to a local butcher recently, he told me that his electric bill had gone from £1500 per month to £3000 per month. That is an extra £18,000 per year. So he has to do another £350 in net profit per week to try and cover this. He won't.
I have a partnership in a fast food outlet. Our gas and electric was approx £8500 p.a. Now, £23,000 p.a.
Raw material costs are constantly rising. Landlords continue to put rents up. Wages stagnate, as business owners spend all their income on covering costs. Owners don't take wages and try to live off savings. Its a battle for pure survival.
Large industry, particularly in hospitality and retail grocery, now pay well over the odds for 16 - 18 year olds, to try and recruit. For the smaller operator, these rates are too high to compete with. The corporations squeeze the small guys, ensuring that they attract the casual/part-time/flexi workers that the sector relies heavily on.
35% pay demands in the public sector are laughable given the current economic climate. Rises in the region of 5-8% are acceptable but as usual, all emphasis is directed at public sector workers. There is no balance in our economy. The small and medium sized businesses ( over 4 million of them ) are cast adrift and left to fend for themselves. They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

I totally get where you’re coming from about SMEs and the like, aware of the huge difficulties they face having had similar conversations with my own butcher and other local businesses.

but when the public sector is about delivering services like education, healthcare including mental health, social services which includes the protection of vulnerable families and children in danger, they are already cut to the bone and for the most part desperately understaffed.

 

[Goldstone Guy]

I have never known such despair in the private sector, amongst SME's, as there is at this time. Confidence is on the floor, costs have spiralled out of control and business owners are refusing to put any more savings/reserves into their businesses. Its crisis point.
Some have experienced 300% increases in utility costs. Talking to a local butcher recently, he told me that his electric bill had gone from £1500 per month to £3000 per month. That is an extra £18,000 per year. So he has to do another £350 in net profit per week to try and cover this. He won't.
I have a partnership in a fast food outlet. Our gas and electric was approx £8500 p.a. Now, £23,000 p.a.
Raw material costs are constantly rising. Landlords continue to put rents up. Wages stagnate, as business owners spend all their income on covering costs. Owners don't take wages and try to live off savings. Its a battle for pure survival.
Large industry, particularly in hospitality and retail grocery, now pay well over the odds for 16 - 18 year olds, to try and recruit. For the smaller operator, these rates are too high to compete with. The corporations squeeze the small guys, ensuring that they attract the casual/part-time/flexi workers that the sector relies heavily on.
35% pay demands in the public sector are laughable given the current economic climate. Rises in the region of 5-8% are acceptable but as usual, all emphasis is directed at public sector workers. There is no balance in our economy. The small and medium sized businesses ( over 4 million of them ) are cast adrift and left to fend for themselves. They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

I'm sure what you're saying about SMEs is correct but I don't know why you're turning this into a private vs public sector battle. Electricity/utility bills have gone up loads for SMEs - what's that got to do with the public sector workers? Ok, if you cut their pay or numbers there'd be more money and some of this could be used to help SMEs, but there are other ways to deal with high utility bills - a sensible energy policy would be a good start.

SMEs and everyone else need functioning infrastructure (mainly public services). I don't have the figures to hand but have read multiple times in the past 6-12 months that the NHS waiting lists are significantly damaging the economy now. We have very low unemployment and a shortage of labour/workers. There are thousands (I think I might have read 1.2 million but this might be wrong) of people who could be in work and economically active, but at the moment are not fit to work and are waiting for a medical procedure before they can return to work. The same knock-ons effects will apply to transport, education (perhaps over the longer term with education) etc.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

Oh dear

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm sure what you're saying about SMEs is correct but I don't know why you're turning this into a private vs public sector battle. Electricity/utility bills have gone up loads for SMEs - what's that got to do with the public sector workers? Ok, if you cut their pay or numbers there'd be more money and some of this could be used to help SMEs, but there are other ways to deal with high utility bills - a sensible energy policy would be a good start.

SMEs and everyone else need functioning infrastructure (mainly public services). I don't have the figures to hand but have read multiple times in the past 6-12 months that the NHS waiting lists are significantly damaging the economy now. We have very low unemployment and a shortage of labour/workers. There are thousands (I think I might have read 1.2 million but this might be wrong) of people who could be in work and economically active, but at the moment are not fit to work and are waiting for a medical procedure before they can return to work. The same knock-ons effects will apply to transport, education (perhaps over the longer term with education) etc.

This

 

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

I think a lot of the public sector workers would be shocked how few people in the private sector are getting a pay hike in 'real terms'

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As well as "junior" doctors being in training for years some become "staff grade" doctors (or at least that's what it used to be called) - doctors who aren't on a training scheme, remain staff grades indefinitely and don't reach consultant level.

All anyone needs to know.

Doctors’ titles explained - Toolkit for doctors new to the UK - BMA

www.bma.org.uk

 

[CHAPPERS]

I think a lot of the public sector workers would be shocked how few people in the private sector are getting a pay hike in 'real terms'

Would they? Would they really?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have never known such despair in the private sector, amongst SME's, as there is at this time. Confidence is on the floor, costs have spiralled out of control and business owners are refusing to put any more savings/reserves into their businesses. Its crisis point.
Some have experienced 300% increases in utility costs. Talking to a local butcher recently, he told me that his electric bill had gone from £1500 per month to £3000 per month. That is an extra £18,000 per year. So he has to do another £350 in net profit per week to try and cover this. He won't.
I have a partnership in a fast food outlet. Our gas and electric was approx £8500 p.a. Now, £23,000 p.a.
Raw material costs are constantly rising. Landlords continue to put rents up. Wages stagnate, as business owners spend all their income on covering costs. Owners don't take wages and try to live off savings. Its a battle for pure survival.
Large industry, particularly in hospitality and retail grocery, now pay well over the odds for 16 - 18 year olds, to try and recruit. For the smaller operator, these rates are too high to compete with. The corporations squeeze the small guys, ensuring that they attract the casual/part-time/flexi workers that the sector relies heavily on.
35% pay demands in the public sector are laughable given the current economic climate. Rises in the region of 5-8% are acceptable but as usual, all emphasis is directed at public sector workers. There is no balance in our economy. The small and medium sized businesses ( over 4 million of them ) are cast adrift and left to fend for themselves. They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

Good post, but as others have said, 'state run' medicine, teaching, police and some other sectors are part of a socialist system where a sense of service once offset aspirations of wealth. The spirit of 'all in it together'. I suppose you consider a lean mean NHS would be a good thing, but what about a lean mean police service? The station here in Faversham is a one man outpost of Sittingbourne now, and patrols are rare. We never see a policeman on the beat. Drug gangs seem to operate with equanimity. And a lean mean NHS? It is already borderline unsafe. Red tape could be reduced, but that means sacking administrators and removing some of the checks and balances that ensure that massive balls ups are rare. You may be rich enough to have private medical treatment but most of us rely on the NHS and in my experience (as an increasingly frequent user) it is creaking. This is due mainly to staff shortages as a consequence of the tough immigration laws introduced by the tories that has stemmed the flow of staff from India, Pakistan, Singapore etc. Laws that, incidentally, we did not have to leave the EU to introduce. Part of the 'taking back control of our borders agenda' bullshit.

It isn't a simple equation and I appreciate that there are economic constraints. However we (I am in the socialist HE sector), might feel a bit more charitable were it not for the outrageous spaffing of public money on corrupt deals for cronies during covid, and the historic tory shitehousery (Sunak's missus made a fortune betting against the pound in the markets during the sub-prime crash, allegedly). In itself it may have been a drop in the ocean (as, indeed, are public sector pay rises, in fact) but it sets a horrible tone. If we felt that the government was on our side, and not preachy hypocrites feathering their own nest, the increasing 'militancy' might go away.

 

[chickens]

Its probably better than a lot of workers in the private sector, who are getting absolutely no pay rises and haven't done for some time.

Here’s an article from Dec 2022 with the ONS figures. Although the charts make it look as if the public sector is still slightly ahead of the private sector, the article itself notes that private sector pay has actually risen above public sector pay if using calculations on total pay (that includes bonuses)

What's the gap between public and private sector pay?

Do public or private sector workers get paid more?

www.bbc.co.uk

Public sector workers are now earning below what the private sector offers, and while public sector workers often have better pension arrangements than their private sector colleagues, I understand that there are no more final salary schemes, and that the new standard civil service pension can’t be taken until State Pension retirement age, without losing 10% of its value for each year a civil servant wishes to retire early. E.g. someone wishing to retire at 60 instead of 66, would only receive 40% of the pension that they’d get if they remained until 66. So to get it, you have to be fortunate enough to remain healthy until the end.

 

[Bodian]

Aren't most in government employment still on final salary pensions. My pension went balls up years ago from 1-60th to 1-120th b4 I left and for the poor guys still there has diminished even more

Local Government is now career average. And it is fully funded by members - that is, it's not funded out of future tax, but out of their current pay.

Its probably better than a lot of workers in the private sector, who are getting absolutely no pay rises and haven't done for some time.

I think a lot of the public sector workers would be shocked how few people in the private sector are getting a pay hike in 'real terms'

Don't let those pesky facts get in the way.....

Average weekly earnings in Great Britain - Office for National Statistics

Estimates of growth in earnings for employees before tax and other deductions from pay.

www.ons.gov.uk

HR Magazine - Public-sector pay rises lag behind private sector

Expected pay rises in the public sector climbed to 3.3% between 21 March and 12 April 2023, but are still lower than the 5% rises typical among private-sector employers, according to the CIPD.

www.hrmagazine.co.uk

 

[Husty]

Good post, but as others have said, 'state run' medicine, teaching, police and some other sectors are part of a socialist system where a sense of service once offset aspirations of wealth. The spirit of 'all in it together'. I suppose you consider a lean mean NHS would be a good thing, but what about a lean mean police service? The station here in Faversham is a one man outpost of Sittingbourne now, and patrols are rare. We never see a policeman on the beat. Drug gangs seem to operate with equanimity. And a lean mean NHS? It is already borderline unsafe. Red tape could be reduced, but that means sacking administrators and removing some of the checks and balances that ensure that massive balls ups are rare. You may be rich enough to have private medical treatment but most of us rely on the NHS and in my experience (as an increasingly frequent user) it is creaking. This is due mainly to staff shortages as a consequence of the tough immigration laws introduced by the tories that has stemmed the flow of staff from India, Pakistan, Singapore etc. Laws that, incidentally, we did not have to leave the EU to introduce. Part of the 'taking back control of our borders agenda' bullshit.

It isn't a simple equation and I appreciate that there are economic constraints. However we (I am in the socialist HE sector), might feel a bit more charitable were it not for the outrageous spaffing of public money on corrupt deals for cronies during covid, and the historic tory shitehousery (Sunak's missus made a fortune betting against the pound in the markets during the sub-prime crash, allegedly). In itself it may have been a drop in the ocean (as, indeed, are public sector pay rises, in fact) but it set a horrible tone. If we felt that the government was on our side, and not preachy hypocrites feathering their own nest, the increasing 'militancy' might go away.

Of course you think this is a good post, and not utter detritus

 

[drew]

They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

Really? You haven't a clue. Where exactly are you going to make cuts. NHS is currently understaffed and haemorrhaging what is left. A lot of classes no longer have teaching assistants. Perhaps you'd like to see a cut to refuse collection, let's say once a month. Maybe cut the money spent on roads so we have to negotiate potholes. Perhaps no mow May becames don't mow at all for all grass verges and public spaces. In the year to Jan 2023, the average private sector pay rise was 7% compared to 4.8%.

And I'm guessing you'd be the first to moan when you've spent 10 hours waiting at A & E or your bins are starting to smell because of the delays etc etc.

Instead of cutting the services that we rely on perhaps we should be looking at who is making all the money and have a better taxation system!!!

 

[Greenbag50]

I have never known such despair in the private sector, amongst SME's, as there is at this time. Confidence is on the floor, costs have spiralled out of control and business owners are refusing to put any more savings/reserves into their businesses. Its crisis point.
Some have experienced 300% increases in utility costs. Talking to a local butcher recently, he told me that his electric bill had gone from £1500 per month to £3000 per month. That is an extra £18,000 per year. So he has to do another £350 in net profit per week to try and cover this. He won't.
I have a partnership in a fast food outlet. Our gas and electric was approx £8500 p.a. Now, £23,000 p.a.
Raw material costs are constantly rising. Landlords continue to put rents up. Wages stagnate, as business owners spend all their income on covering costs. Owners don't take wages and try to live off savings. Its a battle for pure survival.
Large industry, particularly in hospitality and retail grocery, now pay well over the odds for 16 - 18 year olds, to try and recruit. For the smaller operator, these rates are too high to compete with. The corporations squeeze the small guys, ensuring that they attract the casual/part-time/flexi workers that the sector relies heavily on.
35% pay demands in the public sector are laughable given the current economic climate. Rises in the region of 5-8% are acceptable but as usual, all emphasis is directed at public sector workers. There is no balance in our economy. The small and medium sized businesses ( over 4 million of them ) are cast adrift and left to fend for themselves. They are treated like a cash cow. How about some real cuts in the public sector and then, with a leaner workforce, you can properly reward those that most deserve it.

You’re not going to get many appreciation posts. Public services are funded by the tax and relative healthiness of SME’s being able to generate jobs, pay their taxes and generate growth. More growth equals more income equals better funded public services.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Here’s an article from Dec 2022 with the ONS figures. Although the charts make it look as if the public sector is still slightly ahead of the private sector, the article itself notes that private sector pay has actually risen above public sector pay if using calculations on total pay (that includes bonuses)

What's the gap between public and private sector pay?

Do public or private sector workers get paid more?

www.bbc.co.uk

Public sector workers are now earning below what the private sector offers, and while public sector workers often have better pension arrangements than their private sector colleagues, I understand that there are no more final salary schemes, and that the new standard civil service pension can’t be taken until State Pension retirement age, without losing 10% of its value for each year a civil servant wishes to retire early. E.g. someone wishing to retire at 60 instead of 66, would only receive 40% of the pension that they’d get if they remained until 66. So to get it, you have to be fortunate enough to remain healthy until the end.

Ours ended 10 years ago (when I was 55). A a consequence my pension is calculated around my salaray 10 years ago plus my average salary since then. It is still very decent. Maxing my AVCs 20 years ago was the smartest move I ever made as I only had 6 nominal years of the 40 to complete when the final salary scheme ended, even though I had been in post only 25 years.

However, for my younger colleagues, hoping to accumulate 40 years of service, the pension will be worth less than 40% of what mine is now, and they will have to pay more towards it. This is why for the first time in my lifetime we are seeing staff quitting their (effectively tenured) position to move elsewhere. My (40 something) head of department has just quit after only a year due to stress. This is at a 'top five' university.

The new head will need to work out how to persuade much older, research-focused staff to take up the slack with teaching (and teaching does not mean rocking up twice a term to give a lecture. It means mapping content to objectives. Uploading material to the course page. Writing exam essays. Marking exam essays. Navigating a clunky online assessment process. Discussing marks with a second marker. Finding that second marker and persuading them to be the second marker. When previously the person's career has mostly been about writing grants and papers, planning and supervising research. It is no wonder they don't reply to emails about teaching).

The civil service arrangements you describe sound frankly illegal. However this is how my employers is treating my research fund reserves. I posted about this before. They will let me spend only 10% of it each year, and top slice 10% every year. This means that effectively they will take half the money. And the money is 2% of the overhead I charged for contract research. The overhead is 50% of the total. So I charge a company £100K, I need £50K to complete the research, the college takes £50K and gives me back £1K for my rainy day fund which I use to supplement student projects. But the college is now clawing back £500 of that. Where is the incentive to do contract research (that normally generates work I can't publish)?

It is all a massive disincentivised racket, unless you are in a minority getting funds from the MRC or BBSCR (which triggers a financial reward to the university from central government in the REF scheme, and who can consequently horse-trade for a bigger salary (threatening to leave every year, etc.). I know PhDs on £150K a year with a 'no teaching' clause in their contract, and medics who do research on £250K