[Misc] How can the NHS survive in its current form ?

[drew]

the Nightingales were planned to be staffed by mix of army, bank nurses and student nurses (sister was offered option to go there in lieu of training). they weren't used be they cleared out the hospitals and lockdown worked, so they weren't needed.

degrees are a curious issue, came in during mid 90's. were they necessary because of role change, or did the role change because they all had degrees? i gather more the latter.

Bank nurses tend to be existing nurses working extra hours and doing bank shifts. As for student nurses, if they were working at the nightingales, they then weren't doing their various rotations at existing hospitals leaving a shortfall there! Can't comment on military medics as I have no idea how many there are but same thing would apply, ie if they are working at the nightingales then they aren't doing their usual roles.

As for the degree, I wouldn't read too much into it other than it gave them a professional status that wasn't recognized as much when they were State Registered Nurses or State Enrolled Nurses. I don't know for certain but I'm assuming that most of the course is the same as was being taught before except now of course they will be doing a dissertation.

 

[drew]

yes there is , why should people take shit in to their blood stream to keep their jobs , the mandate was flipped at the last minute otherwise the attrition of health workers would have been much worse.

I was assuming your post was anti vaccine hence my comments. I know some anti vaxers who baulked at the covid vaccine but thought nothing of a vaccine that allows them to travel to certain countries.!!!

 

[dazzer6666]

Bank nurses tend to be existing nurses working extra hours and doing bank shifts. As for student nurses, if they were working at the nightingales, they then weren't doing their various rotations at existing hospitals leaving a shortfall there! Can't comment on military medics as I have no idea how many there are but same thing would apply, ie if they are working at the nightingales then they aren't doing their usual roles.

As for the degree, I wouldn't read too much into it other than it gave them a professional status that wasn't recognized as much when they were State Registered Nurses or State Enrolled Nurses. I don't know for certain but I'm assuming that most of the course is the same as was being taught before except now of course they will be doing a dissertation.

Yep. The degree basically replaced the professional study trainee nurses had to do to become an SRN (nursing diploma) which they did on the job and studied privately. BN Degree is more in-depth (some are 4 years Hons courses) and they have to specialise in one of a number of disciplines. Passing placements is a prerequisite to passing the degree as well (think you’re right re the rotations - they are part learning and part free labour).

 

[abc]

That sounds lovely. I am sure the Tories will be more than keen to give Kier a bell and arrange a chat - after the next general election when they have been booted out of power. As for labour, why would a labour government invite the tory shower into the planning room? The tories have nothing to offer on the NHS - because they are in favour of low taxes, private medicine, and a subsistence NHS.

Anyway, thanks for your suggestion.

Have you contacted Putin yet to asked him to sit down with Zelenskyy, hold hands, sing "Kumbaya", and jolly well sort out their misunderstanding?

So you've made my point and thank you for your disdain. The determination by so many people such as yourself (i.e. not just politicians) to maintain the status of the nhs as a political football means it will never 'survive in its current form'. The Putin analogy is childish and irrelevant - this is not a war involving a military invasion of a peaceful nation. This is about the health and welfare of our democratic society and as such we, the electorate, should encourage and expect our elected representatives to be able to work together in the national interest on such a major issue.
It may be idealistic but IMHO it is the only hope for the nhs.

 

[chickens]

I think you'll find the role of the nurse has changed hence the degree status. You now have Health Care Assistants that perform the more mundane (but important) roles like washing patients, feeding them etc etc. As Dazzer6666 states, nurse training should not lead to a poorly paid nurse having a student debt.

As for the nightingales, they were hardly used during covid because there was no one to staff them.

“I know” thought a health minister. “Doctor’s are expensive, we’ll move some of their responsibilities to nurses.”

Ten years later: “I know” thought a health minister. “Nurses are expensive, we’ll move some of their responsibilities to Health Care Assistants.”

I wonder if it’s really cheaper to have all these extra employees, complete with pension schemes, career progression, continuing professional development needs and development opportunities, than it would have been to simply employ enough doctors and nurses in the first place.

 

[dazzer6666]

“I know” thought a health minister. “Doctor’s are expensive, we’ll move some of their responsibilities to nurses.”

Ten years later: “I know” thought a health minister. “Nurses are expensive, we’ll move some of their responsibilities to Health Care Assistants.”

I wonder if it’s really cheaper to have all these extra employees, complete with pension schemes, career progression, continuing professional development needs and development opportunities, than it would have been to simply employ enough doctors and nurses in the first place.

.......or start by having a critical look at things like the absolute multitude of 100kpa+jobs (Directors supporting Directors for example ? Associate Director of Cleaning Services ? ) currently advertised (let alone those occupied - there are 100+ 70k+ vacancies on the NHS Jobs website right now) and see if they can't be done differently.

https://www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/search_vacancy?action=max_result&max_result=100

 

[drew]

“I know” thought a health minister. “Doctor’s are expensive, we’ll move some of their responsibilities to nurses.”

Ten years later: “I know” thought a health minister. “Nurses are expensive, we’ll move some of their responsibilities to Health Care Assistants.”

I wonder if it’s really cheaper to have all these extra employees, complete with pension schemes, career progression, continuing professional development needs and development opportunities, than it would have been to simply employ enough doctors and nurses in the first place.

Problem is the term nurse covers a hell of a lot. You can have a specialist nurse in ICU for example that needs to know how to set up and run ventilators and all sorts of technical equipment as well as correct doseages etc. Do you think it economical to train people to do that and then have them distributing meals and cleaning patients and the like, important jobs but not as technical.

 

[cirC]

£152.6bn will be spent on the NHS. This is down from the £157.9bn spent on the NHS in 2021/2022, and the £156bn in 2020/2021, when there was the small matter of a raging pandemic to contend with. This spending represents around 45 per cent of overall government outlay on goods and services in the UK, according to the Office for national stats. 45% is a very large percentage and I suspect not sustainable without a massive rethink on the whole system. The UK taxpayer does not get value for money and though I can think of many ways to save to save some of that a very big discussion needs to be talked through. I worked in the NHS and I have seen waste but some of the empire builders within do not want change. This applies to management right through to the doctors.

How much does the NHS cost the UK compared to healthcare spending in other countries? - The Big Issue

The NHS is in crisis, and yet some still say it comes at too high a cost to the taxpayer. So how much does the NHS cost the UK?

www.bigissue.com

 

[KZNSeagull]

We need another Royal Commission on the NHS, but preferably one that does not take years to come to it's conclusions, to find the best way for it to operate today. Ideally the running of the NHS should be made apolitical.

 

[drew]

£152.6bn will be spent on the NHS. This is down from the £157.9bn spent on the NHS in 2021/2022, and the £156bn in 2020/2021, when there was the small matter of a raging pandemic to contend with. This spending represents around 45 per cent of overall government outlay on goods and services in the UK, according to the Office for national stats. 45% is a very large percentage and I suspect not sustainable without a massive rethink on the whole system. The UK taxpayer does not get value for money and though I can think of many ways to save to save some of that a very big discussion needs to be talked through. I worked in the NHS and I have seen waste but some of the empire builders within do not want change. This applies to management right through to the doctors.

How much does the NHS cost the UK compared to healthcare spending in other countries? - The Big Issue

The NHS is in crisis, and yet some still say it comes at too high a cost to the taxpayer. So how much does the NHS cost the UK?

www.bigissue.com

Seems a bit odd as the Who report, as reported by Big Issue, claims we are spending £3615 per person. However, using the higher budget of £157b and a pop. of 67m that's about £2315 per person!!! Not sure what other costs the have included to get the higher figure!!

 

[beorhthelm]

Seems a bit odd as the Who report, as reported by Big Issue, claims we are spending £3615 per person. However, using the higher budget of £157b and a pop. of 67m that's about £2315 per person!!! Not sure what other costs the have included to get the higher figure!!

the WHO number is based on total healthcare spent including private.

 

[dsr-burnley]

We need another Royal Commission on the NHS, but preferably one that does not take years to come to it's conclusions, to find the best way for it to operate today. Ideally the running of the NHS should be made apolitical.

Can't be done. In a democracy, nothing can be ultimately apolitical because the elected representatives must be able to change it.

If an apolitical body decided that the NHS should be replaced by a system like the USA has, would that be better than letting politicians do it? If an apolitical body decided that the NHS was the perfect system, and all it needed was an extra 10p on income tax, would that be better? Nothing can be above democracy, except dictatorship.

 

[Knocky's Nose]

Haven't read the previous posts (sorry) but... the world today goes like.

Create a Problem : Cause a reaction : Offer a Solution

We are currently creating the reaction. The solution is a privatised healthcare system. That's what they want.

They will continue to break the NHS until we demand a solution.

Can nobody see this?

 

[jcdenton08]

Haven't read the previous posts (sorry) but... the world today goes like.

Create a Problem : Cause a reaction : Offer a Solution

We are currently creating the reaction. The solution is a privatised healthcare system. That's what they want.

They will continue to break the NHS until we demand a solution.

Can nobody see this?

Is the NHS working at present?

 

[nicko31]

Haven't read the previous posts (sorry) but... the world today goes like.

Create a Problem : Cause a reaction : Offer a Solution

We are currently creating the reaction. The solution is a privatised healthcare system. That's what they want.

They will continue to break the NHS until we demand a solution.

Can nobody see this?

Cynical view, but I share it with you. The Tory right hate the NHS, its not profitable enough for their mates

 

[sydney]

I was assuming your post was anti vaccine hence my comments. I know some anti vaxers who baulked at the covid vaccine but thought nothing of a vaccine that allows them to travel to certain countries.!!!

yes , that's why i had mine , a lot of people have had adverse reactions , personally i felt like shyte for a month but when i got "covid" it was nothing more than a cold ......the covid vaccine was rushed through , ill researched/tested and has now generated a massive distrust in the pharma business which i think is warranted.

 

[sydney]

Cynical view, but I share it with you. The Tory right hate the NHS, its not profitable enough for their mates

yes ...its all about profit , take money off the elderly , keep it away from their children ....make sure we keep the upper hand .......it's a shit house mentality but ask yourself , 40 years ago the likes of Callahan , Thatcher, Healy , Benn ....they weren't all millionaires where as now all the politicians are LOADED ......wtfu....

 

[drew]

Is the NHS working at present?

Would an insurance based system work better? Run and financed properly the NHS would work but that's impossible when those making the decisions don't want it to work. In the US there are millions that can't afford insurance.

 

[Rdodge30]

Would an insurance based system work better? Run and financed properly the NHS would work but that's impossible when those making the decisions don't want it to work. In the US there are millions that can't afford insurance.

A means tested system, a hybrid of sorts. Free for those that can’t afford it and health insurance required for those earning enough.

 

[drew]

yes , that's why i had mine , a lot of people have had adverse reactions , personally i felt like shyte for a month but when i got "covid" it was nothing more than a cold ......the covid vaccine was rushed through , ill researched/tested and has now generated a massive distrust in the pharma business which i think is warranted.

Again, all bolloxs. I can counteract that with my anecdotal evidence that after four jabs I've had absolutely no reaction. But that isn't scientific evidence, as isn't anecdotal crap on facebook etc etc. I had covid last Dec with no symptoms yet had it again in August with high temp and headaches for a couple of days. Without the vaccine who's to say it wouldn't have been much worse, certainly not a bunch of conspiracy theorists on FB or Andrew Bridgen!! You make it sound like the vaccine started from scratch, it didn't. Scientists already had a lot of knowledge about this type of virus. They had sequenced the genome of the virus as early as 24th Jan 2020 and it was 70% the same as Sars