[Football] Why is it insulting to be called ladies

[BBassic]

I don't have any skin in this argument not being a woman (or a lady) myself but semantically one could argue that the because men's game is called the men's game and not the gentlemen's game thus the women's game should be the women's game.

But really, just seems like something else for people to draw battle lines over

 

[Wozza]

According to the paper today Charlton Women are to be rebranded as Charlton Ladies, in a shock decision that their players have labelled "insulting" Does anyone know why it is now insulting to be referred to as ladies, this term always used to be a polite reference. As an aside, I don't know why all teams in the Women's Super League have to be called women or ladies after their club name. Isn't there a clue in the title Women's that tells you what sex they are.

From the Indie, years ago...

While at first look “ladies” might seem like just a polite and respectful term for women, in reality it comes along with all the connotations of ‘ladylike’ behaviour. As goalkeeper Carly Telford, who also plays for England, says “when I think of ‘ladies’ I do think of afternoon tea somewhere”. And she’s right, isn’t she?

According to Collins Dictionary, “If you say that a woman is a lady, you mean that she behaves in a polite, dignified and graceful way.” Ladies arrange flowers and ladies are members of the congregation. By using the word lady, we are giving subconscious instructions about how women should behave. For me, lady suggests not only frailty and the need for protection, but it also avoids any association with bodily functions. Ladies don’t sweat, they don’t bleed, they don’t give birth. You wouldn’t say a strong, independent lady, just as much as you wouldn’t read in a report that some ladies experienced multiple orgasms.

It isn’t seen as feminine to be strong or ladylike to get physical. So why is it the exception to this rule that female athletes are so often referred to as ladies? Is it an attempt to counter the perception of athletic pursuits and the women who engage in them as unfeminine? What it is effectively doing is suggesting how women should behave while they are participating in sport. Deborah Cameron, professor of language and communication at the University of Oxford, agrees “ladies” is a bit patronising and says the switch to women is “emphasising the parallels rather than the differences between the men’s and the women’s game”.

The word woman is a powerful one. It affirms our humanity and dignity, without denying our femaleness. It doesn’t treat the embodiment of being female as a source of shame or weakness. As Chelsea striker Fran Kirby says, “We work so hard every day on the pitch so we feel we should be respected as the athletes and the strong, powerful women that we are.” And these women are inspirational, they are focused, they are resilient and they want to be unburdened by social norms. Sport should be liberating and Chelsea’s decision is helping to create a place where we can escape these constant coded messages about how women should look and behave in society. That is why this is important. That is why I hope the other teams in the Women’s Super League join ranks and see the importance of the language they use.

 

[Driver8]

 

[Wozza]

This was v amusing though...

 

[The Clamp]

It all goes back to “behaving correctly”. I get why people find it a tad insulting. It is a bit “good little lady”. Very patronising, “let the ladies have a go”. I totally get why a woman in the 21st century would take exception to a sports team being called “ladies”.

Bottom line is they don’t wish to be called ladies, they want to be called women. What more is there to say?

 

[The Clamp]

This was v amusing though...

View attachment 142654

Sort of irrelevant really. We frequently refer to the men’s teams as “the boys”.

Equality is about treating people with equal respect while acknowledging differences in people or groups.
Believe it or not, words and phrases can make a huge difference over a long enough period of time.

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't know. You could read the opinion of someone who doesn't like it.

Here are the thoughts of such a person.

https://helloclue.com/articles/culture/lets-talk-about-word-lady

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

article reinforces the case this is offense for the sake of it. trying desperatly to find some reason why the archaic use of the word make it bad or a twisted inference of something negative, when its common modern usage isnt. the article really loses itself on the question "Do you hear groups of boys and men being referred to as gentlemen as often ", to which i'd say yes. the author says no. so maybe differnet circles.

anyway, pretty sure there's some other teams with ladies in the title. are Doncaster Belles or Millwall Lionesses offensive?


(i also chuckled at the argument "People’s personality features shouldn’t be tied to their gender.". there's an awful lot of debate and strong views to the contrary on that)

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Most of her arguments would apply equally to the word women. She is basically opposed to any form of words that suggests men and women aren't the same.

She starts off with a pretty stupid question - "Do you hear groups of boys and men being referred to as gentlemen as often as you hear girls and women being called ladies? Not in my experience." Perhaps she doesn't realise, that, being a woman herself, she is less likely to hear people being addressed as "gentleman" than she is to hear people being addressed as "ladies". If you are literally never, by definition, part of a group of men and boys, then you are less likely to hear how a group of men and boys is addressed.

Maybe it’s an age thing.

I always refer to a group of women as “ ladies”…always had and haven’t had anyone whinge or call me patronising. When I was an umpire at cricket, I was always calling teams gentlemen ( even though that was stretching it as some teams were complete cxxxx) sounds a bit off if you called them “ geezers” or “ blokes”

 

[zefarelly]

Daft Bints


Works for me.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

article reinforces the case this is offense for the sake of it. trying desperatly to find some reason why the archaic use of the word make it bad or a twisted inference of something negative, when its common modern usage isnt. the article really loses itself on the question "Do you hear groups of boys and men being referred to as gentlemen as often ", to which i'd say yes. the author says no. so maybe differnet circles.

anyway, pretty sure there's some other teams with ladies in the title. are Doncaster Belles or Millwall Lionesses offensive?

BTW as Exeter Chiefs have to change their name as it is insulting to native Americans, why hasn’t Kansas City Chiefs been told to do the same? ( yes I know chief in this case is the nickname of the previous owner)

 

[ConfusedGloryHunter]

In a sporting context being referred to as a lady has belittling or patronising connotations, frequently implying inferiority to men. In other contexts (such as romance or defecation) the term lady does not have such negative connotations and it is important to not confuse the two.

 

[ozzygull]

My perpesctive as a female. If someone called me a Lady or a Women I would not be offended by either. Saying that, if someone refered to me as a lady I would think that they see me as a bit posh, which I am not, so would make me smile and find it funny.

I don't see an issue with Fran Kirby refering to her team mates as girls. as I hear male football players refer to their team mates as "the boys".

It is not an issue that I would lose any sleep over and I understand that having a the team name suffixed on the with "women" as it stop people with no interest in women's game losing their rag when they click on an article for Brighton and Hove Albion and god forbid find it's about a women's team, for example.

 

[Eeyore]

'Lades' is a bit condescending. So I can see why they wanted the change. It's their team. Not sure why anyone, who wouldn't normally care, is making an issue of it.

 

[m@goo]

According to the paper today Charlton Women are to be rebranded as Charlton Ladies, in a shock decision that their players have labelled "insulting" Does anyone know why it is now insulting to be referred to as ladies, this term always used to be a polite reference. As an aside, I don't know why all teams in the Women's Super League have to be called women or ladies after their club name. Isn't there a clue in the title Women's that tells you what sex they are.

At a guess it's probably a bit demeaning or condescending and it might imply that they are all meek, heterosexual, delicate things.

 

[arfer guinness]

Maybe it’s an age thing.

I always refer to a group of women as “ ladies”…always had and haven’t had anyone whinge or call me patronising. When I was an umpire at cricket, I was always calling teams gentlemen ( even though that was stretching it as some teams were complete cxxxx) sounds a bit off if you called them “ geezers” or “ blokes”

We must be of the same generation, I always refer to people as ladies and gentlemen as a courtesy. I'm never sure how to address the multitude of other gender identities, maybe just others.

 

[Eeyore]

We must be of the same generation, I always refer to people as ladies and gentlemen as a courtesy. I'm never sure how to address the multitude of other gender identities, maybe just others.

There's a difference between general references of courtesy and titles.

We don't have 'Gentleman's Football'. The term 'ladies' in a title is very outdated and can be seen by some as condescending. It's all about context. I can see it.

So they have decided to change. It really, really, isn't an issue.

 

[Brovion]

'Lades' is a bit condescending. So I can see why they wanted the change. It's their team. Not sure why anyone, who wouldn't normally care, is making an issue of it.

Um ... But aren't they changing from 'Women' to the, as you correctly point out, more condescending term 'Ladies'? Or did I read the OP wrong?

Assuming I didn't and in fact the Charlton team used to be called 'Charlton Women' and are now called 'Charlton Ladies', yes, I think that's a bit of a backward step.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

What's wrong with wimmin

 

[Wozza]

Sort of irrelevant really. We frequently refer to the men’s teams as “the boys”.

Equality is about treating people with equal respect while acknowledging differences in people or groups.
Believe it or not, words and phrases can make a huge difference over a long enough period of time.

Er... I was merely highlighting (literally) the IRONY of a sportswoman using the term 'girls' - a term many sportswomen object to - in an article literally about how to address sportswomen.

 

[ozzygull]

Er... I was merely highlighting (literally) the IRONY of a sportswoman using the term 'girls' - a term many sportswomen object to - in an article literally about how to address sportswomen.

Do they? Maybe again it is a context thing. For example if you say "She kick's like a girl" or "she rides like a girl" then that is probably said in way to be disparaging. In the context that Fran used it in, it is fine. The same way I might say to my freind "should we get the girls together for a night out?"