[Football] That Crystal Palace banner

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Please god.

You are unlikely to persuade me of anything if you start invoking men in the sky

 

[martin tyler]

Oh yeah you have. All that whataboutery you have spouted in this thread HWT. Calling sportswashing "fake news", berating CP fans for having a banner against it. You might not be defending their actions in Saudi Arabia but you are certainly defending their place in the Premier League.

I don’t think anyone is defending their place here. They don t have a place here to most decent human beings but unfortunately they are here and there not going anywhere.
If people were truly outraged and in all honesty people should be then football should never have been allowed to get to this years ago. But no. We allow one in. Then another with a slightly worse reputation, then another whose a bit worse, we give a World Cup to a nation who has an appalling record for everything. By god we even allow the prince of Qatar be head of UEFA executive committee. He was a saint a while back for not backing the super league, and everyone looks the other way over everything else.
I believe the banner was for the right reason but there will no doubt be all fans at all clubs thinking well there is another top flight place sown up for years on end one less club fighting for scraps and that is what they are really appalled about.
Sweden win the World Cup your be out celebrating like every other Swedish person no doubt. The palace fans with the banner will be out of England win the World Cup celebrating. Human right ect all forgotten

 

[Cheshire Cat]

If people took notice of Hitler and dealt with the issues he was addressing then maybe the war wouldn't have happened. Ignoring him and acting like he was a nobody led to the war. Surely sitting down with the Arabs and saying we believe you are wrong for x y z is the best way to deal with him. The trouble is everyone wants to be a hero but never wants to deal with the issues.

Why is no one asking what influences (if any) they have on our government for them to be talking to the Premier League over the Newcastle takeover.

You might want to specify exactly which "issues" you mean and how they should have been addressed to avoid any misunderstandings.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I take it you're referring to the shady breakaway wing of Amnesty International who go by the name of Ultra People's Front of Selhurst, who dress up as 10 year old ninja warriors?

I recommend they use a bit more ninja.

Here is a list of the Palace Ultra's previous political and humanitarian victories:

Their relentless campaigning overturned the decision to have the world cup held in Qatar
They have diven out the sportswashing owners of Man Citeh, and continue to relentlessly press for further oustings.

And their human rights campaigns are not just focused on the narrow world of football and their immediate relegation rivals:

They successfully got the Guidford 4's convictions quashed
They played a pivotal role in the campaign for justice for the 97
They were instrumental in the release of Nelson Mandela

They are an example to us all of what a strong belief in freedom and democracy and respect for human right can achieve.

And they never once saw us holding hands.

 

[Swansman]

Wrong again. You might persuade me to consider joining your campaign if you were to stop playing the man instead of the ball.

Here is my view. We should be accepting investment from places overseas only where human rights are upheld (equal rights regardless of gender, sexuality, politics, ethnicity, religion, class and wealth). I am out of step with UK PLC on this since UK PLC has regarded this as not an issue since trade began. I can't recall one general election where human rights overseas has impacted on the outcome. I do not believe that the tide will be turned by palace Ultras. You think that every little helps. That's fine. Let's leave it there shall we?

So you oppose taking the knee since it wont end racism? Or what is the difference between opposing and taking a stance against Saudi violation of human rights and opposing racists violation of human rights?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Using social media, a bit like posting on a message board?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm afraid out young friend is having a conniption fit today. He'll calm down when he's had his pizza and drugs.

 

[Brightonright]

My money is on the Spiv himself. I believe he paid for, provided and planted this banner. I would think he is more worried about the league having a ‘big 7’ instead of a ‘big 6’ and Palace being thrust further down pile than any moral outrage though.

Looking forward to the next banner that the Premier League’s new self appointed moral guardians are going to unveil. Will it be against Chelsea around how Abramovich acquired the state assets and made his billions or will they protest against Man City’s owners who are accused by amnesty international of trying to “sportswash” their country’s “deeply tarnished image”?

Of course not, because Chelsea and Man City are not relegation rivals for Palace.

Not sure about that, they have 3 other owners and 2 of them are billionaires, if they wanted to they could already buy success.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the Popular Palace Peoples Front of Selhurst, are Brighton fans going to take a similar approach to the banner when we play Newcastle?

Or do we pretend nothing has happened, and quietly ignore the whole thing?

 

[highflyer]

You are unlikely to persuade me of anything if you start invoking men in the sky

Was not expecting to persuade you of anything (I'm not that foolish). I'm arguing with you on an internet football forum in order to let off steam about something that I am genunely angry about and to avoid doing some work that I am finding tricky.

I'm a devout athiest, but there are certain phrases that have meaning beyond the literal. And in this case, as an expression of relief I think it works rather well.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So you oppose taking the knee since it wont end racism? Or what is the difference between opposing and taking a stance against Saudi violation of human rights and opposing racists violation of human rights?

Please stop now.

I have always supported taking the knee and have posted relentlessly about this. Anything that annoys racists and makes them feel out of step is good in my book. I have never said anything other than this.

'Supporting' protest banners against the Saudis is quite different. Why? The Saudis won't give a flying tiny shit about banners at football matches. HMG and the FA have said 'you're OK mate' and the Newcastle fans love them so if you don't like it (and I don't like it) then you need to think up a better plan than banners, leaflets, quiche drives etc. I don't have a plan. I'd like to see a global economic boycott of Saudi and a number of other countries, albeit this would probably trigger a world war, so I suggest this with circumspection.

Perhaps diplomacy, then? Softly softly etc?

Meanwhile the banners may have some effect. As I said, in three weeks we will see if the campaign has legs....and in a year if the Saudis are gone, I will acknowledge I was wrong.

And I am very certainly not going to boo the banners, even in the early weeks. If one goes up in the North Stand on Nov 6 I will very certainly applaud it. And I am allowed to regard it more as useful a way of winding up the geordies than changing the world. I should also add that if the Palace ultras were honest and admit they were trying to unsettle the Newcastle players (at least in part) with the banner, fine. It's all this 'well done palace for leading on the great stand against the murder kingdom' that has me raising an eyebrow.

And shouting at me, someone who probably shares most of your values (yes, it's true) is ****ing stupid, to be frank.

 

[Brightonright]

Where were Palace when this happened:

The Abu Dhabi led takeover of Manchester City has rightly received condemnation and anger.

By endorsing this, the Premier League has made a mockery of it’s own ‘Owners and Directors’ test.

The Premier League has chosen money over morals and in green lighting this deal, has done business with one of the world’s most bloody and repressive regimes.

According to human rights organisations, the government of the UAE violates a number of fundamental human rights. The UAE does not have democratically elected institutions and citizens do not have the right to change their government or to form political parties.

Activists and academics who criticize the regime are detained and imprisoned, and their families are often harassed by the state security apparatus. There are reports of forced disappearances in the UAE, many foreign nationals and Emirati citizens have been abducted by the UAE government and illegally detained and tortured in undisclosed locations.

In numerous instances, the UAE government has tortured people in custody (especially expats and political dissidents), and has denied their citizens the right to a speedy trial and access to counsel during official investigations.

UAE laws discriminate against LGBT individuals only.

Flogging and stoning are legal forms of judicial punishment in the UAE due to Sharia courts although no stoning has ever taken place.[

The government restricts freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and the local media are censored to avoid criticising the government, government officials or royal families.

Despite being elected to the UN Council, the UAE has not signed most international human-rights and labour-rights treaties, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families.

Nobody can change the past but if we all stand together maybe we can change the future and stop the continued erosion of football into the pit of commercialisation

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

“On Saturday 23 October police received a report of an offensive banner displayed by Crystal Palace fans. Officers are assessing the information and carrying out enquiries. Any allegations of racist abuse will be taken very seriously.”

Pathetic. I'm with the Palace lot on this one.

.... and this is where we are in this day and age. The Saudis have been involved in murders, and everything else mentioned on the banner, that is fact. However, someone, thousands of miles away from the country, is "offended", and that will be taken far more seriously than the actual barbaric crimes of a nation

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Please stop now.

I have always supported taking the knee and have posted relentlessly about this. Anything that annoys racists and makes them feel out of step is good in my book. I have never said anything other than this.

'Supporting' protest banners against the Saudis is quite different. Why? The Saudis won't give a flying tiny shit about banners at football matches. HMG and the FA have said 'you're OK mate' and the Newcastle fans love them so if you don't like it (and I don't like it) then you need to think up a better plan than banners, leaflets, quiche drives etc. I don't have a plan. I'd like to see a global economic boycott of Saudi and a number of other countries, albeit this would probably trigger a world war, so I suggest this with circumspection.

Perhaps diplomacy, then? Softly softly etc?

Meanwhile the banners may have some effect. As I said, in theree weeks we will see if the campaign has legs....and in a year if the Saudis are gone, I will acknowledge I was wrong.

And I am very certainly not going to boo the banners. If one goes up in the North Stand I will very certainly applaud it.

Shouting at me, someone who probably shares most of your values (yes, it's true) is ****ing stupid, to be frank.

A few points. A racist won't care about those who take the knee, but you support that. That's a small act within the powers of those doing it. It won't solve the overall issue but that doesn't mean it could be criticised as not doing enough.

Yet the banner, which the saudis probably wont care about, and is a small act within the powers of those doing it, is criticised as not being enough.

If we limited peoples forms of protests to those that guarantees an end result/is the single strongest action possible there and then, then barely any form of protest would exist.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Was not expecting to persuade you of anything (I'm not that foolish). I'm arguing with you on an internet football forum in order to let off steam about something that I am genunely angry about and to avoid doing some work that I am finding tricky.

I'm a devout athiest, but there are certain phrases that have meaning beyond the literal. And in this case, as an expression of relief I think it works rather well.

Fair enough. I hope that a bit of venting at me made you feel better. I don't mind.

And indeed, the lower case g was a give away. My comment there was a little naughty.

 

[Brightonright]

So why have a go at the Premier League. Why didn't the HF do something against the govenment?

Or we could ask what can we do to make this bigger because if all Brighton fans and other clubs get behind this there will be a big enough voice to be heard

 

[highflyer]

If we limited peoples forms of protests to those that guarantees an end result/is the single strongest action possible there and then, then barely any form of protest would exist.

I wish I could give you more than one thumbs up.

I would add that it's not just about limiting other people's protests. It's the self limiting that people do that I find so frustrating.

'It won't be enough' is (often in cynical and patronizing tones) equated with 'we shouldn't bother' and thus 'I won't bother'.
.
I can't think of a significant progressive social shift in history where that argument could not have been used in the early days.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A few points. A racist won't care about those who take the knee, but you support that. That's a small act within the powers of those doing it. It won't solve the overall issue but that doesn't mean it could be criticised as not doing enough.

Yet the banner, which the saudis probably wont care about, and is a small act within the powers of those doing it, is criticised as not being enough.

If we limited peoples forms of protests to those that guarantees an end result/is the single strongest action possible there and then, then barely any form of protest would exist.

They hate it. Just read NSC! I don't expect taking the knee to change the minds of intractable racists, but those on the fence get a chance to think about it, and as the old racists die off, the younger people may think differently. Comparing taking the knee with other fans putting up anti Saudi banners at Newcastle games and waving them at the Newcastle fans is quite different. Palace fans want Newcastle's owners out. How is that remotely like taking the knee?

Other points, yes, I agree, and I have nuanced my comments in various previous posts on the thread.

If someone who wants the Saudis out of football (and indeed the UK) is prepared to accept that part of the Palace Ultra's objective is to unsettle a relegation rival (not all of the objective, but some of it) then we can all say we are all on the same page.

Both I and [MENTION=23795]Hugo Rune[/MENTION] and some others have raised a few questions and qualms about the banner flying. I have a background of protesting (and my ex-wife has an extreme background) and the experience has been a lesson. Most protests fail. You need to make it appear that everyone is on side, or the protests unravel and the momentum is lost. So....

So this campaign needs acrive support from Newcastle supporters or it will fail. Without this, the protest will look like the singling out of one club for reasons unrelated to human rights, by fans of other clubs. Not a good look.

Look at Man U. Despite a within-club fan protest movement, Man U still has the Glazers and a smattering of fans attend wearing yellow and green scarves and that's it. Even a within-club protests failed here. In this case it was because fans of other clubs didn't engage and, more importantly, 3000 Man U fans protesting and 72,000 Man U fans rubbing their hands together at the success isn't going to effect change. I appreciate the Glazers aren't killers, but the point is clear: to have any hope of effecting change the majority of a club's fans are required.

Getting Newcastle fans on board will be much harder (than the yellow and green Mancunian movement) since there is no evidence yet the owners want to milk the club for cash. The opposite in fact.

So if Palace or Brighton supporters really want to get The Saudis out of football the first thing that needs to happen is fan organizations need to get in touch with Newcastle's fan organizations. Engage with Newcastle fans to creat Fans United events!. What does the Newcastle fan board look like today?

Attacking the club and antagonizing Newcastle fans in the ground with graphic banners is one way of going about things, but it will alienate Newcastle fans, and that may be enough to cement the Saudis in place.

The end can justify the means but the means must be able to achieve the end.

 

[Jim in the West]

My reading of the banner (and the accompanying statement) is that it's primarily aimed at the Premier League. I'm sure those Palace fans would love to get rid of the Saudis (and their money, more to the point), but the problem here is that the EPL has sanctioned the takeover. In this respect, the Palace fans are saying precisely the same as 18 of the other 19 clubs in the EPL. It is highly, highly unlikely that the Saudis will take any notice of a few banners, but the Premier League MAY change its Owners and Directors test to prevent this sort of thing happening again.....and possibly also ensure that the ability of NUFC to dodge FFP rules in the future is limited.

What's happening now is not so different to the European Super League*....competition gets massively distorted by huge amounts of wealth in the hands of a small number of clubs.

*PS: I'm not ignoring the fact that the Saudis have different questions to answer - but the result is similar, as far as football is concerned.

 

[Bry Nylon]

It has become apparent that the banner displayed at Selhurst has proved divisive and sparked a wider debate about motives, meanings and measures, which is proving to be both a distraction and counter-productive. Therefore, for the forthcoming visit of Newcastle United I propose we exercise our right to protest - but do so in a slightly more nuanced way.

It's time to reclaim the agenda and accordingly, the placards are progressing nicely:

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Our Newcastle game is obviously live, I would love to see a banner or some flags.

Oh & well done Palace.