[Football] Villa Fringe vs Liverpool Youth

[Kinky Gerbil]

Is the correct answer. Kind of feel like most in the thread didn’t know this though

FL 100 percent at fault here - no need to tie these dates in stone

 

[blue-shifted]

This competition is dead, things need to change

One of the major issues in football is the number of governing bodies which exist vying for a slice of the pie. The only way they can improve their share is to be the body that that has as many fixtures as possible. This happens at international level, for example the Nations League, at European level, for example UEFA are looking at expanding the Champions League and at domestic level.

As the competition is run by the Football League, they are unlikely to sacrifice the already tiny level of influence, prestige and income they already have by binning this competition off.

My guess is that we'll be crawling along like this in 10 years time

 

[blue-shifted]

Said it before, and I'll say it again, and easy way forward is to exclude clubs qualifying for the Champions League to start with. Allow it to be a 'best of the rest' cup. They don't need the extra games in their schedules.

But the FL still want to sell the broadcast rights, as they are completely skint, so they need them in

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wasn’t it the FA cup that Man United withdrew from?

Yes, you're right.

But why let the facts get in the way of a good yarn?

 

[blue-shifted]

Erm, didn’t we get to the semi final of the FA Cup last year?

The rest of our senior squad (Balogun, , Bernado etc were injured for Villa. We just didn’t have a side to put out

Quite a few miraculous recoveries for the weekend though. We played a full team against Chelsea. Players get injured in training, just as much as matches. I just don’t think it’s excessive to ask a 25 man squad to play approx 45 games per season between them

I’m not bleating about the Villa line up. Just think we should recognise that as a Premier League club, we now have a genuine chance of a major trophy. Villa are in their first year as a Premier League club and now have a terrific chance of silverware

I probably need my head read, but I’ve bought tickets for the Wednesday game, and if the line up contains Spong, Jenks and Yapi ….. I’ll ...., I’ll .... we’ll I’ll only have myself to blame.

 

[blue-shifted]

And the QF the previous year...

It’s great that we had cup runs, and reaching the semis and qf’s in successive seasons is an achievement, but having watched the games, can you really say we took those games seriously? We did once we got to the semi’s but apart from that it was a series of turgid performances against much changed lower league opponents where we somehow scraped through.

My point, is this, what if we think a bit differently about this. Accept there's risk of injury, but play our best team, play it like a league game and try to win a competition. Who knows, people might actually start attending the games if we treat them like first team fixtures

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It’s great that we had cup runs, and reaching the semis and qf’s in successive seasons is an achievement, but having watched the games, can you really say we took those games seriously? We did once we got to the semi’s but apart from that it was a series of turgid performances against much changed lower league opponents where we somehow scraped through.

My point, is this, what if we think a bit differently about this. Accept there's risk of injury, but play our best team, play it like a league game and try to win a competition. Who knows, people might actually start attending the games if we treat them like first team fixtures

I understand what you are saying. You are correct in that I would be more inclined to drive down from Norfolk if there were a full strength team. As it stands we are season ticket holders and come down for league games but the only cup games we have attended in recent years are Lincoln away and those quarter and semi finals. However there is more to this than pleasing the fans. We have a large premier league squad and the cups are an opportunity for fringe players to get a game. They need to be kept interested.

 

[Easy 10]

It does my head in when managers "rest" players for the weekend, as though playing Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday every once in a while is akin to running six marathons in a week. Pathetic. They are all highly tuned athletes these days - the notion that they are physically incapable of playing 3 games in a week, 90 minutes max in each is baffling. The rest of the week would see a few light training sessions each morning, with all the modern state-of-the-art recovery equipment available to them, all done by mid-day, then home to put their feet up.

Just look at the physical demands on tennis players, who can routinely play 3-4 matches in the space of a week, each one potentially an energy-sapping 3-4 hour slog. Or rugby players, who rightly play once a week because each game is pretty much a physical all-out war. Its understandable those guys would NEED a weeks recovery time.

Premier League footballers though ? Do me a favour. Especially when you're not involved in Europe, so the midweek sojourns come round about 3 times a season tops. By all means rotate to give a couple of the fringers a start, but these wholesale changes are for the birds.

If its a case of not wanting to "risk" any 1st team players in the Cups, then just be honest about it from the outset so we all know what we're paying to watch at least. At the moment I'm very much in two minds over the game vs MASSIVE, as I'm loathe to pay to go along to a glorified training session where whatever the result, everyone just shrugs at the end.

 

[crodonilson]

It does my head in when managers "rest" players for the weekend, as though playing Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday every once in a while is akin to running six marathons in a week. Pathetic. They are all highly tuned athletes these days - the notion that they are physically incapable of playing 3 games in a week, 90 minutes max in each is baffling. The rest of the week would see a few light training sessions each morning, with all the modern state-of-the-art recovery equipment available to them, all done by mid-day, then home to put their feet up.

Just look at the physical demands on tennis players, who can routinely play 3-4 matches in the space of a week, each one potentially an energy-sapping 3-4 hour slog. Or rugby players, who rightly play once a week because each game is pretty much a physical all-out war. Its understandable those guys would NEED a weeks recovery time.

Premier League footballers though ? Do me a favour. Especially when you're not involved in Europe, so the midweek sojourns come round about 3 times a season tops. By all means rotate to give a couple of the fringers a start, but these wholesale changes are for the birds.

If its a case of not wanting to "risk" any 1st team players in the Cups, then just be honest about it from the outset so we all know what we're paying to watch at least. At the moment I'm very much in two minds over the game vs MASSIVE, as I'm loathe to pay to go along to a glorified training session where whatever the result, everyone just shrugs at the end.

Wolverhampton has proved this, I think they've played 29 games already this season, they've taken the Europa League seriously playing pretty much full strength teams in every game and they've got the joint least number of players who to now in their squad have made a PL appearance (think it's 18 players).

 

[Easy 10]

Wolverhampton has proved this, I think they've played 29 games already this season, they've taken the Europa League seriously playing pretty much full strength teams in every game and they've got the joint least number of players who to now in their squad have made a PL appearance (think it's 18 players).

Wolves have had to play almost every midweek this season (which also started in July for them) so I would have more sympathy with them needing to shuffle and prioritise when it comes to the domestic Cups. Their schedule this season has been tough, with a lot of long trips abroad.

The Prem clubs not even involved in Europe though ? We've been playing once a week since August - barely even that, when you factor in that we've also had three 2-week International breaks as well. Yet we STILL go all knock-kneed at the thought of "squeezing in" a game on a Tuesday when (gulp) there's a game coming up on Saturday or Sunday.

I mean christ.

 

[blue-shifted]

Wolverhampton has proved this, I think they've played 29 games already this season, they've taken the Europa League seriously playing pretty much full strength teams in every game and they've got the joint least number of players who to now in their squad have made a PL appearance (think it's 18 players).

And Wolves play with serious intensity. It's the number of matches the players are playing making them fit. Them and Leicester were the two teams who looked the most fit and in the zone when we played them.

 

[Swansman]

It does my head in when managers "rest" players for the weekend, as though playing Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday every once in a while is akin to running six marathons in a week. Pathetic. They are all highly tuned athletes these days - the notion that they are physically incapable of playing 3 games in a week, 90 minutes max in each is baffling. The rest of the week would see a few light training sessions each morning, with all the modern state-of-the-art recovery equipment available to them, all done by mid-day, then home to put their feet up.

Just look at the physical demands on tennis players, who can routinely play 3-4 matches in the space of a week, each one potentially an energy-sapping 3-4 hour slog. Or rugby players, who rightly play once a week because each game is pretty much a physical all-out war. Its understandable those guys would NEED a weeks recovery time.

Premier League footballers though ? Do me a favour. Especially when you're not involved in Europe, so the midweek sojourns come round about 3 times a season tops. By all means rotate to give a couple of the fringers a start, but these wholesale changes are for the birds.

If its a case of not wanting to "risk" any 1st team players in the Cups, then just be honest about it from the outset so we all know what we're paying to watch at least. At the moment I'm very much in two minds over the game vs MASSIVE, as I'm loathe to pay to go along to a glorified training session where whatever the result, everyone just shrugs at the end.

I dont agree with a lot here. Tennis and football is not comparable. How many 60m sprints on a wet turf do Rafael Nadal do in his average game? How often do Roger Federer kick his legs when he do? Its just not even close to the same thing.

Yeah some players can play three games a week without any real issues - players that are in their physical prime are able to do this. Young or old players are going to have issues with it though.

That said, I think the main purpose wasnt to rest the first team squad but to give young players experience and see how they coop with high level opponents. Sure, last year at Swansea he could probably have played like Luciano Narsingh (former Dutch international) and increased the chances of winning, but instead he decided to take a look at what this Dan James kid could do. Swansea lost the game but no one is going to say it wasnt worth it.

By the end of the season 3-4 of the young players starting that game were matchday squad regulars. Maybe could have happened anyway but impossible to know.

And this whole "we payed for this"... is tiresome.

You pay to watch Brighton or you pay to watch results?
First: I know most oldschool fans in here are very used to supporting a lower league team to which the League Cup matters. But welcome to the Premier League where the most clubs either dont give a shit or very little shit about this cup. If you pay for a League Cup game and expect your club to treat it like a Champions League final, no one is fooling you but yourself.

Secondly: You get to see the future Dunks, Alzates and Marchs. Its pretty damn cool even if you lose. In 20 years when he retire after making 600 league appearances for the club you can say "I saw Haydon Roberts first senior game". Its pretty neat. Watching your future stars should be a lot more interesting than advancing to the next round of the Cacao Cup that Man City or similar will eventually win anyway.

I dont think it will be much difference next year so if you dont want to "waste money" watching the future of the club, you better stay home.

 

[blue-shifted]

I dont agree with a lot here. Tennis and football is not comparable. How many 60m sprints on a wet turf do Rafael Nadal do in his average game? How often do Roger Federer kick his legs when he do? Its just not even close to the same thing.

Yeah some players can play three games a week without any real issues - players that are in their physical prime are able to do this. Young or old players are going to have issues with it though.

That said, I think the main purpose wasnt to rest the first team squad but to give young players experience and see how they coop with high level opponents. Sure, last year at Swansea he could probably have played like Luciano Narsingh (former Dutch international) and increased the chances of winning, but instead he decided to take a look at what this Dan James kid could do. Swansea lost the game but no one is going to say it wasnt worth it.

By the end of the season 3-4 of the young players starting that game were matchday squad regulars. Maybe could have happened anyway but impossible to know.

And this whole "we payed for this"... is tiresome.

You pay to watch Brighton or you pay to watch results?
First: I know most oldschool fans in here are very used to supporting a lower league team to which the League Cup matters. But welcome to the Premier League where the most clubs either dont give a shit or very little shit about this cup. If you pay for a League Cup game and expect your club to treat it like a Champions League final, no one is fooling you but yourself.

Secondly: You get to see the future Dunks, Alzates and Marchs. Its pretty damn cool even if you lose. In 20 years when he retire after making 600 league appearances for the club you can say "I saw Haydon Roberts first senior game". Its pretty neat. Watching your future stars should be a lot more interesting than advancing to the next round of the Cacao Cup that Man City or similar will eventually win anyway.

I dont think it will be much difference next year so if you dont want to "waste money" watching the future of the club, you better stay home.

But there are u23 games for this which are advertised as such and free to season ticket holders.

And concerning young and old players struggling to play lots of games…. The great majority of our squad are between 23 and 30. If they can’t play on Tuesday then Saturday then who can?

 

[Easy 10]

I dont agree with a lot here. Tennis and football is not comparable. How many 60m sprints on a wet turf do Rafael Nadal do in his average game? How often do Roger Federer kick his legs when he do? Its just not even close to the same thing.

Yeah some players can play three games a week without any real issues - players that are in their physical prime are able to do this. Young or old players are going to have issues with it though.

That said, I think the main purpose wasnt to rest the first team squad but to give young players experience and see how they coop with high level opponents. Sure, last year at Swansea he could probably have played like Luciano Narsingh (former Dutch international) and increased the chances of winning, but instead he decided to take a look at what this Dan James kid could do. Swansea lost the game but no one is going to say it wasnt worth it.

By the end of the season 3-4 of the young players starting that game were matchday squad regulars. Maybe could have happened anyway but impossible to know.

And this whole "we payed for this"... is tiresome.

You pay to watch Brighton or you pay to watch results?
First: I know most oldschool fans in here are very used to supporting a lower league team to which the League Cup matters. But welcome to the Premier League where the most clubs either dont give a shit or very little shit about this cup. If you pay for a League Cup game and expect your club to treat it like a Champions League final, no one is fooling you but yourself.

Secondly: You get to see the future Dunks, Alzates and Marchs. Its pretty damn cool even if you lose. In 20 years when he retire after making 600 league appearances for the club you can say "I saw Haydon Roberts first senior game". Its pretty neat. Watching your future stars should be a lot more interesting than advancing to the next round of the Cacao Cup that Man City or similar will eventually win anyway.

I dont think it will be much difference next year so if you dont want to "waste money" watching the future of the club, you better stay home.

The physical demands on tennis and footballers are different TYPES of demands, granted. But it still involves intensive running, twisting, turning, all the strains on the body and (for tennis players) over a longer period. Neither of them are running at full pelt for the entire time either, so IMO the point stands. If Roger Federer can play three matches at 3-4 hours each inside a week, then Solly March should be able to handle a Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday quite comfortably, especially as it only happens a couple of times a season.

I'm not going to completely re-hash my argument again about the youth team we put out vs Villa, and I actually don't disagree with your point about giving the youngsters a run out in these games. But my primary point was, and is, that as with everything there is a balance to be struck. 2, maybe 3 youngsters starting alongside mainly 1st teamers and some fringers ? Sure. It gives them time on the pitch alongside the pro's and is vital in helping integrate them towards the 1st team. Field an almost an entire XI of kids though ? Thats a step too far IMO.

You've obviously gone to an absurd extreme to make your point in suggesting that I expect us to treat a Carabao Cup 2nd round tie the same as we should a Champions League Final. I don't. But there IS a balance to be struck, because I wouldn't expect us to treat it like a training game either.

 

[Swansman]

But there are u23 games for this which are advertised as such and free to season ticket holders.

And concerning young and old players struggling to play lots of games…. The great majority of our squad are between 23 and 30. If they can’t play on Tuesday then Saturday then who can?

While I am one of the "the Caribbean Cup is crap" believers, there's still a major difference between playing U23 games and playing in the Caravan Cup. Young players gets a motivation boost from playing for the senior cup, even if its the Cabbalah Cup.

As for the players 23-30 indeed they could play (if they arent sick or injured which was the case with a lot of them if we are to believe Potter) Tuesday and Saturday. Sure, it takes time for Potters system of periodized training to have full effect, but they could and thats why I think the main reasoning was "me and Haydon Roberts will get a lot more out of this game than me and Balogun would".

 

[Seasider78]

When playing in Europe clubs have no issues with the Sat - Tues - Sat and play full squads in all those games it’s only when the cups come around the ‘need to rest a few’ line gets trotted out.

Let’s face it they put the full strength squad out in the competitions where the money is which is the PL and Europe everything else is secondary and gets treated as such.

As fans we hate this as knowing the league is out of reach we want to see our clubs compete in competitions we have a chance of winning.

Just another symptom of money driving priorities which is why the cups are dying on their arse

 

[Pavilionaire]

Aston Villa were effectively handed a bye into the semi-final of the League Cup. They barely had to break sweat and were 4-0 up by half-time. Not only is this unfair for the other quarter-finalists who will have to put in a genuine shift, it is also unfair on the likes of Southampton who travel to Villa on Saturday for a 6-pointer. Imagine if Villa had had to play the proper Liverpool team last night? They'd have been run ragged and Saints would be travelling up to Birmingham in a more optimistic mood.

I think in the crowded sports market persisting with a sub-standard competition is a hard sell to spectators and armchair viewers alike. Who wants to watch four or five regulars and some stiffs play an under-18 side when the TV schedule is rammed with top quality competitive men's football, and now women's football too?

I think it's important for clubs to have a third trophy to go for, and I think it's important that young players have an opportunity to play in a meaningful competition. I've argued for a 20/20-style football tournament in the past with multiple games of short duration on the same day at one venue.

Even if doesn't get rolled out for the League Cup I think a shortened version of the game would hold appeal, and would give players the chance to interact with fans while they were weren't playing.