[Football] Uefa Likely To Move Champions League Final

[Swansman]

Puts pressure on Putin won't it when their sports teams are denied revenue from international sporting tournaments

No it doesnt. If I sneak into the backyard of Lord Bigcastle and steal two deposit bottles, it does not put pressure on him. If you think the money from international sports tournaments matter to the Russian government... then I dont think you are seeing the big picture.

Apologies if you've posted it elsewhere, but given the situation as it is now, how would you suggest the world approaches it, assuming a swift end to this war is the end goal?

I don't have a magic answer by any means, but I do think that it's pressure from within Russia that's likely to bring about the best (i.e. least bloodshed & no nukes) conclusion to all of this - whether that's an uprising of the general population, or the Oligarchs and other power-brokers in the Kremlin turning on Putin.

Whilst the suffering of innocent Russian citizens should not be taken lightly, I'm not sure the inconvenience of having the club they support thrown out of Europe, or the re-locating of the Champions League final stacks up as 'suffering' in anywhere near the same stratosphere as what the Ukrainians are going through, or what will happen to the Russian population if Putin carries on down this path.
If such sanctions make it hit home to more of the Russian population (or the 'elites' that no doubt own the clubs concerned, or Gazprom that misses out on its marketing opportunity) that they need to do something about Putain, then I'm absolutely for it.

More innocent Russians will suffer in far worse ways if the situation escalates, so non-violent 'suffering', whether its Russian kids being kicked out of UK private schools, or Zenit St Petersburg fans annoyed at being thrown out of the Europa League (though didn't Betis do that on the pitch last night?) is a better outcome in my opinion.

My approach at this point would be to let civilian Russia keep interacting with the world as much as possible. If you start punishing the innocent - like banning their athletes or throwing them out of Eurovision - they are more likely took take the "us against the world" stance than go against their leadership. There is a rift between our worlds and making it wider through essentially telling them that "culturally, you dont deserve to be with the rest of the world" is not a wise move.

Generally in psychology, if you freeze someone out they are more likely to isolate themselves and develop negative feelings towards the community they are frozen out from rather than to fight their way back in.
IMO the best solution (at this point, there was better ways earlier) to end things quickly is to a) negotiate what can be negotiated (might be limited opportunities for that) b) allow the war to be a war about Ukraine and not a clash of cultures eg. punishing Russians that have nowt to do with it c) if making moves (warfare, economical sanctions etc) against Russia, target things that affect their government and military rather than civilians.

Moving the Champions League final is obvious for security reasons. But why throw out Russian teams out of UEFA competitions? If the Russians dislike what their government is doing, footballing circumstances has historically been one of the best opportunities to voice that dissent. Back in the Franco days, Basque and Catalan people couldnt protest on the streets so they made sure to make their voices heard in the stadiums.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

I'm genuinely amazed how many posts I've read on here and twitter that mention the words "Eurovision" As if anyone gives a toss if the Russian song моя прекрасная лошадь "My lovely horse" to you makes it to the final or not in the context of an actual war going on.

In further idiocy, the Ukraine have been backed off the boards the last 2 days in the same competition. Mind you, it is a banger.

 

[beorhthelm]

Puts pressure on Putin won't it when their sports teams are denied revenue from international sporting tournaments

losing a bit of prestige from hosting a popular event will hurt a bit. they've spend a lot of time and energy building up the national image and now its all being tossed aside.

 

[Lower West Stander]

No it doesnt. If I sneak into the backyard of Lord Bigcastle and steal two deposit bottles, it does not put pressure on him. If you think the money from international sports tournaments matter to the Russian government... then I dont think you are seeing the big picture.



My approach at this point would be to let civilian Russia keep interacting with the world as much as possible. If you start punishing the innocent - like banning their athletes or throwing them out of Eurovision - they are more likely took take the "us against the world" stance than go against their leadership. There is a rift between our worlds and making it wider through essentially telling them that "culturally, you dont deserve to be with the rest of the world" is not a wise move.

Generally in psychology, if you freeze someone out they are more likely to isolate themselves and develop negative feelings towards the community they are frozen out from rather than to fight their way back in.
IMO the best solution (at this point, there was better ways earlier) to end things quickly is to a) negotiate what can be negotiated (might be limited opportunities for that) b) allow the war to be a war about Ukraine and not a clash of cultures eg. punishing Russians that have nowt to do with it c) if making moves (warfare, economical sanctions etc) against Russia, target things that affect their government and military rather than civilians.

Moving the Champions League final is obvious for security reasons. But why throw out Russian teams out of UEFA competitions? If the Russians dislike what their government is doing, footballing circumstances has historically been one of the best opportunities to voice that dissent. Back in the Franco days, Basque and Catalan people couldnt protest on the streets so they made sure to make their voices heard in the stadiums.

Right.

So the Russian invasion hasn't affected Ukrainian civilians? And has it dawned on you that your average Russian might not be getting an impartial view from the media? Of course its a class of bloody cultures. Oh and their athletes can't compete under their own nationality because of the doping programme.

Get real FFS.

 

[Springal]

No it doesnt. If I sneak into the backyard of Lord Bigcastle and steal two deposit bottles, it does not put pressure on him. If you think the money from international sports tournaments matter to the Russian government... then I dont think you are seeing the big picture.

Disagree - I was in russia for the World Cup and see how much effort and national pride into hosting that event. Every city massively embraced it, it was all very pleasant (compared to my previous visit to Moscow) and very 'West' - the fact they were hosting the F1, had the Champions League Final tells me there was an element of sportswashing taking place. All of that is undone now otherwise why bother in the first place if it is of insignificance

But why throw out Russian teams out of UEFA competitions? If the Russians dislike what their government is doing, footballing circumstances has historically been one of the best opportunities to voice that dissent. .

What like throwing them out of the IOC making them compete as the 'ROC' and they still have athletes testing positive for PEDs, including 15 year old girls? They have a blatant disregard for any 'chances' they get given

 

[MJsGhost]

No it doesnt. If I sneak into the backyard of Lord Bigcastle and steal two deposit bottles, it does not put pressure on him. If you think the money from international sports tournaments matter to the Russian government... then I dont think you are seeing the big picture.

If the money doesn't matter, that just means there were other reasons why they wanted to host these things in the first place, which are then denied to them. Prestige, legitimacy, pet project for an oligarch, sport-washing... who cares - deny them whatever their goal was in the first place. Any disappointment for civilians is small beans in the wider context. I don't think you are seeing the bigger picture.

My approach at this point would be to let civilian Russia keep interacting with the world as much as possible. If you start punishing the innocent - like banning their athletes or throwing them out of Eurovision - they are more likely to take the "us against the world" stance than go against their leadership. There is a rift between our worlds and making it wider through essentially telling them that "culturally, you dont deserve to be with the rest of the world" is not a wise move

What about civilian Ukraine's right to interact with the world? 44m people annexed so Putin's approval ratings get a boost. Do you think the average, rational Russian cares more about watching their sports stars / teams compete on the international stage than what their army is doing to their neighbour? Who's going to die on the Eurovision hill? Swedes seriously love their Eurovision don't they?!

Generally in psychology, if you freeze someone out they are more likely to isolate themselves and develop negative feelings towards the community they are frozen out from rather than to fight their way back in.

What if there's a bona fide reason for that freezing out, which is pretty obvious for all but the terminally brainwashed? How would you feel if Sweden invaded Denmark, which led to other nations authorising sanctions that meant you could no longer follow Graham Potter and eat pizza? Would you blame those other nations, or the illegal & reckless actions of your government? Would you be more likely to protest against your government, or sign up for the Swedish military so you can crack some NATO heads for denying you Potterball and a 12" pepperoni?

IMO the best solution (at this point, there was better ways earlier) to end things quickly is to a) negotiate what can be negotiated (might be limited opportunities for that)

Negotiating with Putin is like playing chess with a pigeon - sooner or later he's just going to sh|t all over the board and fly off. 'Limited opportunities' indeed.

b) allow the war to be a war about Ukraine and not a clash of cultures eg. punishing Russians that have nowt to do with it

I think the key thing is to not allow it to be a war at all. There's only one side that wants this war. The ones that get punished by "allowing it to be a war about Ukraine" are the innocent Ukrainians who didn't ask to be invaded by Russia.

The Russian people have more to do with it than the Ukrainians - "nowt to do with it" is too simplistic. What percentage of their population needs to rise up to make Putin's position untenable? As scary as their army and police is, if 5% of the population protested, they'd struggle to lock up 7m or so people.

c) if making moves (warfare, economical sanctions etc) against Russia, target things that affect their government and military rather than civilians.

Nobody (that I've seen anyway) is advocating bombing their civilians, or starving them out / causing physical harm in any way. It's mostly access to cultural things, which really doesn't seem like a big price compared to what their government is up to. Some impact on their lives (non-violent) will make the situation more real and relevant to them and instigate action.

Moving the Champions League final is obvious for security reasons. But why throw out Russian teams out of UEFA competitions? If the Russians dislike what their government is doing, footballing circumstances has historically been one of the best opportunities to voice that dissent. Back in the Franco days, Basque and Catalan people couldnt protest on the streets so they made sure to make their voices heard in the stadiums.

I think the world has moved on a bit since then, don't you? Here I am, sat at my desk (I should be working) in a tiny village outside Lewes, debating a war that broke out yesterday over 1500 miles away, with a guy that lives in Sweden