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[Finance] The cryptocurrency (Bitcoin etc) thread



CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
5,978
Shoreham Beach
This has to be one of the best cryptocurrency put downs I have seen. The missing table is included in an image below.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenehrlich/2024/03/27/the-rise-of-cryptos-billion-dollar-zombies/

GMDCXFJakAAllOC.jpg
 




CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
5,978
Shoreham Beach
Apologies for a few unanswered posts.

Still banging away at my tax returns, slowly piecing together the missing information inc Kucoin.
Yes it will be nigh on impossible for HMRC to challenge anything half sensible submitted.
No HMRC are not taxing realised profits, as otherwise you could bugger off somewhere unregulated on holiday and spend a ton of untaxed crypto.
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,328
No HMRC are not taxing realised profits, as otherwise you could bugger off somewhere unregulated on holiday and spend a ton of untaxed crypto.
what do you think you are taxed on then? remember the tax system works on where you are tax resident, not where you physically locate (though normally the same). if you dispose of assets overseas you are still liable for taxes in UK if tax resident. lots of precedent is set with currency and stock trading, cant sell them somewhere else, say NYSE, and avoid tax.
 


CheeseRolls

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 27, 2009
5,978
Shoreham Beach
what do you think you are taxed on then? remember the tax system works on where you are tax resident, not where you physically locate (though normally the same). if you dispose of assets overseas you are still liable for taxes in UK if tax resident. lots of precedent is set with currency and stock trading, cant sell them somewhere else, say NYSE, and avoid tax.
Sorry this was in response to @sydney and his expectation that crypto can be a tax black hole. You are correct and in fact cryptotaxcalculator a Koinly rival is Australian, which suggests that the Aussie tax authorities are approaching this along similar lines to the UK.
 


Tim Over Whelmed

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 24, 2007
10,213
Arundel
Seldom look at Crypto, have dabbled a few quid here and there, currently hold:

Bitcoin
Polkadot
SHIBA INU
DESO
Loopring
Ribbon Finance
MANA
Polygon
Ethererum
Jasmy
Solana
Powerledger
Harvest
Uniswap

All purchased to hold for five years and see where the markets take them

and have been hearing about Pi, anyone know what this Pi thing is?
 




sydney

tinky ****in winky
Jul 11, 2003
17,756
town full of eejits
Sorry this was in response to @sydney and his expectation that crypto can be a tax black hole. You are correct and in fact cryptotaxcalculator a Koinly rival is Australian, which suggests that the Aussie tax authorities are approaching this along similar lines to the UK.
it is only taxable once it comes out of your wallet i.e the profit is realised into cash , i have discussed this at length with my accountant , members of the public can no longer claim capital losses either , only lay these losses off against future gains.
 


Nigella's Cream Pie

Fingerlickin good
Apr 2, 2009
1,060
Up your alley
it is only taxable once it comes out of your wallet i.e the profit is realised into cash , i have discussed this at length with my accountant , members of the public can no longer claim capital losses either , only lay these losses off against future gains.
I am not aware of any recent changes to offsetting capital losses, you can still use them against current gains.

As for CGT only when cashing out, that's not the case - from https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/cryptoassets-manual/crypto22100:

Individuals need to calculate their gain or loss when they dispose of their tokens to find out whether they need to pay Capital Gains Tax. A ‘disposal’ is a broad concept and includes:
  • selling tokens for money
  • exchanging tokens for a different type of token
  • using tokens to pay for goods or services
  • giving away tokens to another person (unless it’s a gift to their spouse or civil partner)
 


sydney

tinky ****in winky
Jul 11, 2003
17,756
town full of eejits
I am not aware of any recent changes to offsetting capital losses, you can still use them against current gains.

As for CGT only when cashing out, that's not the case - from https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/cryptoassets-manual/crypto22100:

Individuals need to calculate their gain or loss when they dispose of their tokens to find out whether they need to pay Capital Gains Tax. A ‘disposal’ is a broad concept and includes:
  • selling tokens for money
  • exchanging tokens for a different type of token
  • using tokens to pay for goods or services
  • giving away tokens to another person (unless it’s a gift to their spouse or civil partner)
im in OZ , capital loses can be offset against gains once realised but you cannot use them as a write off on earnings......the rest of it you could argue all day long about , you could have 15 k profit sat in your wallet but until its realised it's not profit is it...?? i'd argue till the cows come home , when i transfer 15 k out of my crypto to my bank account i expect to pay tax on it but if it's still in my wallet they can jog the fark on.
 




Gazwag

5 millionth post poster
Mar 4, 2004
30,180
Bexhill-on-Sea
im in OZ , capital loses can be offset against gains once realised but you cannot use them as a write off on earnings......the rest of it you could argue all day long about , you could have 15 k profit sat in your wallet but until its realised it's not profit is it...?? i'd argue till the cows come home , when i transfer 15 k out of my crypto to my bank account i expect to pay tax on it but if it's still in my wallet they can jog the fark on.
In UK if you look at crypto in a wallet that is no different from shares with a stockbroker - everytime a share is disposed of a capital event occurs so a capital profit or loss is made, it matters no iota if the cash is used to purchase a new share or retained by the stockbroker and never appearing in your bank account.

No different to crypto, if any is sold/transferred into another token (although there is a difference as a share holding turns to cash first then another shareholding is purchased, this can be direct in crypto). If the 15k profit you taking about is the difference between cost and current value then yes, no tax as nothing realised, if that 15k profit was on BTC and you bought ETH, even though it was a "straight swap" so to speak the BTC profit is taxable under CGT even though nothing has left your wallet.
 


Nigella's Cream Pie

Fingerlickin good
Apr 2, 2009
1,060
Up your alley
im in OZ , capital loses can be offset against gains once realised but you cannot use them as a write off on earnings......the rest of it you could argue all day long about , you could have 15 k profit sat in your wallet but until its realised it's not profit is it...?? i'd argue till the cows come home , when i transfer 15 k out of my crypto to my bank account i expect to pay tax on it but if it's still in my wallet they can jog the fark on.
Same rules in Oz as in UK - from https://community.ato.gov.au/s/arti...axes#3a9b6cb2-46e7-4f60-afb4-f5be399600a4-111:

If you’re an investor and dispose crypto, this is treated as a CGT event. It includes when you:
  • sell, donate or gift crypto.
  • trade, swap or exchange crypto (including trading one crypto for another).
  • convert crypto into regular (fiat) currency, for example, into Australian dollars.
  • use crypto to purchase goods or services.
The ATO tracks crypto (see https://koinly.io/blog/ato-cryptocurrency/). If you have had a letter from them, how to deal with it:
https://koinly.io/blog/ato-crypto-letter/
 
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