Southern Rail STRIKE details

Tom Hark Preston Park · Aug 9, 2016

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...same-chance-of-getting-to-work-20160808111961

Train strike leaves commuters with roughly the same chance of getting to work

A FIVE-DAY train strike has left commuters with about the same chance of getting to work as usual.

Services on Southern lines are cancelled due to industrial action, instead of not arriving because of signal failures, a horse on the track or non-specific general shitness.

Brighton-based Nikki Hollis said: “I thought I might as well come to the station anyway, as the arrival of trains seems to be determined more by the cosmic forces of fate than any sort of timetable.

“At least if one doesn’t come I know there’s an actual reason. It’s the not knowing that kills you.”

A Southern rail spokesman said: “Officially we are in the grip of the longest train strike in 50 years. However if you really need to travel you may as well give it a go.

“There may be some trains floating around ‘in the system’ that we don’t know about. We don’t really keep tabs on that sort of thing.”

Lankyseagull · Aug 9, 2016

halbpro said:
It appears to be very close to the ScotRail deal though, which RMT indicated recently they'd be willing to at least suspend any further action over.

Interesting point regarding the ScotRail deal, as the letter that was sent by the RMT Union to Charles Horton the Govia Boss shows - as copied from the "Uckfield News" website:

Dear Charles,

Role of the Guard and Extension of DOO – Southern (GTR)

I am writing in response to your open letter to your customers and other publicity issued to your customers during the ACAS talks.

We have had intensive talks under the auspices of ACAS over the past two days and I am hoping that you will be able to authorise your team, at the reconvened talks today [August 5], to accept the following. Should you do so then my Union will suspend the strikes called for next week. This would, obviously be welcomed by your customers and my members.

The offer this union is making to Southern is as agreed with Abellio Scotrail this week, an agreement that enabled us to suspend our industrial action.

So there can be no doubt I will set down the 4 key elements of Scotrail’s offer that was agreed.

1. Scotrail guaranteed a Conductor on every train.

2. Scotrail guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

3. ScotRail confirmed that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

4. These proposals, including the above guarantees, are subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about, and agreeing to, a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.

This is a sensible way forward and would enable us, like I said, to suspend the industrial action. We would speedily meet to discuss and agree train despatch, something we are doing with Scotrail.

I feel that this is a positive way forward that will bring an end to this dispute and enable Southern to start running a full service again. I will keep my National Executive Committee on stand-by today so that should you accept the above then a decision can be taken to, hopefully, suspend all industrial action.

I await your urgent response.

Yours sincerely,
Mick Cash
General Secretary

halbpro · Aug 9, 2016

Lankyseagull said:
Interesting point regarding the ScotRail deal, as the letter that was sent by the RMT Union to Charles Horton the Govia Boss shows - as copied from the "Uckfield News" website:

Dear Charles,

Role of the Guard and Extension of DOO – Southern (GTR)

I am writing in response to your open letter to your customers and other publicity issued to your customers during the ACAS talks.

We have had intensive talks under the auspices of ACAS over the past two days and I am hoping that you will be able to authorise your team, at the reconvened talks today [August 5], to accept the following. Should you do so then my Union will suspend the strikes called for next week. This would, obviously be welcomed by your customers and my members.

The offer this union is making to Southern is as agreed with Abellio Scotrail this week, an agreement that enabled us to suspend our industrial action.

So there can be no doubt I will set down the 4 key elements of Scotrail’s offer that was agreed.

1. Scotrail guaranteed a Conductor on every train.

2. Scotrail guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

3. ScotRail confirmed that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

4. These proposals, including the above guarantees, are subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about, and agreeing to, a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.

This is a sensible way forward and would enable us, like I said, to suspend the industrial action. We would speedily meet to discuss and agree train despatch, something we are doing with Scotrail.

I feel that this is a positive way forward that will bring an end to this dispute and enable Southern to start running a full service again. I will keep my National Executive Committee on stand-by today so that should you accept the above then a decision can be taken to, hopefully, suspend all industrial action.

I await your urgent response.

Yours sincerely,
Mick Cash
General Secretary

So, judging by the letter, Southern's offer appears to be pretty close? At least worth meeting to discuss I would imagine. I think the only sticking points would be Conductor vs On-Board Member of Staff and the suggestion that there would be circumstances where a conductor is not required?

Tony Meolas Loan Spell · Aug 9, 2016

Lankyseagull said:
Interesting point regarding the ScotRail deal, as the letter that was sent by the RMT Union to Charles Horton the Govia Boss shows - as copied from the "Uckfield News" website:

Dear Charles,

Role of the Guard and Extension of DOO – Southern (GTR)

I am writing in response to your open letter to your customers and other publicity issued to your customers during the ACAS talks.

We have had intensive talks under the auspices of ACAS over the past two days and I am hoping that you will be able to authorise your team, at the reconvened talks today [August 5], to accept the following. Should you do so then my Union will suspend the strikes called for next week. This would, obviously be welcomed by your customers and my members.

The offer this union is making to Southern is as agreed with Abellio Scotrail this week, an agreement that enabled us to suspend our industrial action.

So there can be no doubt I will set down the 4 key elements of Scotrail’s offer that was agreed.

1. Scotrail guaranteed a Conductor on every train.

2. Scotrail guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

3. ScotRail confirmed that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

4. These proposals, including the above guarantees, are subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about, and agreeing to, a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.

This is a sensible way forward and would enable us, like I said, to suspend the industrial action. We would speedily meet to discuss and agree train despatch, something we are doing with Scotrail.

I feel that this is a positive way forward that will bring an end to this dispute and enable Southern to start running a full service again. I will keep my National Executive Committee on stand-by today so that should you accept the above then a decision can be taken to, hopefully, suspend all industrial action.

I await your urgent response.

Yours sincerely,
Mick Cash
General Secretary

Dear Mick

You and your members can **** OFF.

I have lost patience. Badly timed, badly executed and **** you and your members.

Yours TMLS a fed up commuter who has had enough.

British Bulldog · Aug 9, 2016

A train without a guard is like a bus without a clippy, They still run ok and as far as I've seen their no worse on the safety record.

Deadly Danson · Aug 9, 2016

Tony Meolas Loan Spell said:
Its a shame the old union colleagues are not there now.

There could have been enormous PR on the side of the guards. Imagine that a big banner saying "here we are but Southern do not want us" as we see endless cancellations on the boards. The media, everyone would have paid attention. Imagine that. An employer actually STOPPING you from working.

But they WILLINGLY CHOSE to do it now when everyone is at their wits end and it plays nicely into SASTAS hand. Utter cretins. Hence no sympathy for them.

Firstly they did put out PR such as this: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-lies-exposed/ and this: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/new-rmt-hotline-exposes-gtr-delays/ but no one was really interested in the national press. It was mentioned on here and a bit in the Argus but if no one in the mainstream press then there's not a whole lot anyone can do. Secondly, it's not as though we necessarily know in advance which trains they are going to cancel so it's very difficult to coordinate action at maybe 15 minutes notice when we go down to the train to find it cancelled "due to staff shortages". And, whilst I'm not particularly comfortable with RMT's decision to strike for 5 days, there is no denying the impact on a whole new group of people has brought a whole new pressure to bear on Southern which has to be the aim in any action and consequently it seems the two sides are getting a bit closer whereas without strike action this whole farce would have just ambled on (which it may yet still do).

Boy Blue · Aug 9, 2016

At least the guards will be able to pay their attention to fair doggers because before they could only walk so far before they had to watch the door and signal it's okay to leave. Fair doggers always used to sit at either the front or back as it took the conductor ages to reach the front or rear. No he can be a whippet.

Deadly Danson · Aug 9, 2016

British Bulldog said:
A train without a guard is like a bus without a clippy, They still run ok and as far as I've seen their no worse on the safety record.

One has a maximum of around 85 passengers, the other around 1700. A huge difference. One is 31 ft long, the other can be around 800 ft long.
Even before this dispute I would never recommend a lone female travelling late at night on a guard less train as these are the ones that are targeted.

Tony Meolas Loan Spell · Aug 9, 2016

Deadly Danson said:
Firstly they did put out PR such as this: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/southern-lies-exposed/ and this: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/new-rmt-hotline-exposes-gtr-delays/ but no one was really interested in the national press. It was mentioned on here and a bit in the Argus but if no one in the mainstream press then there's not a whole lot anyone can do. Secondly, it's not as though we necessarily know in advance which trains they are going to cancel so it's very difficult to coordinate action at maybe 15 minutes notice when we go down to the train to find it cancelled "due to staff shortages". And, whilst I'm not particularly comfortable with RMT's decision to strike for 5 days, there is no denying the impact on a whole new group of people has brought a whole new pressure to bear on Southern which has to be the aim in any action and consequently it seems the two sides are getting a bit closer whereas without strike action this whole farce would have just ambled on (which it may yet still do).

But they didn't bring it to anyones attention really.

Where were the banners? They are out in force today outside Brighton station. In 15 mins they can easily get one of those pop up roller banners and stand there.

https://www.rollerbannersuk.com/eco...7Y9GBM3fuTI0BfzNkGB5U5m1BIYEAzyz58aAkxW8P8HAQ

Case in point. For weeks the 7.30(ish) and the one before to Southampton was ALWAYS cancelled. I remembered looking out for it for weeks as I had to go to Southampton and kept an interest on those times/cancellations as I was having pot luck getting my usual London trains. So sorry but I dont buy it as there were the same trains cancelled every week but I'm sure there were guards there ready. Thats WHEN they should have done more.

dazzer6666 · Aug 9, 2016

Boy Blue said:
At least the guards will be able to pay their attention to fair doggers because before they could only walk so far before they had to watch the door and signal it's okay to leave. Fair doggers always used to sit at either the front or back as it took the conductor ages to reach the front or rear. No he can be a whippet.

Not seen any doggers on trains - usually too cramped I'd think

British Bulldog · Aug 9, 2016

Deadly Danson said:
One has a maximum of around 85 passengers, the other around 1700. A huge difference. One is 31 ft long, the other can be around 800 ft long.
Even before this dispute I would never recommend a lone female travelling late at night on a guard less train as these are the ones that are targeted.

So what can a guard do with 1700 passengers that a driver can't do?

beorhthelm · Aug 9, 2016

Deadly Danson said:
One has a maximum of around 85 passengers, the other around 1700. A huge difference. One is 31 ft long, the other can be around 800 ft long.
Even before this dispute I would never recommend a lone female travelling late at night on a guard less train as these are the ones that are targeted.

having a guard on a train half a dozen carriages up, in their little cabin, is going to keep the ladies safe? this sort of crass fear mongering doesnt help.

Ernest · Aug 9, 2016

British Bulldog said:
Deadly Danson said:

One has a maximum of around 85 passengers, the other around 1700. A huge difference. One is 31 ft long, the other can be around 800 ft long.
Even before this dispute I would never recommend a lone female travelling late at night on a guard less train as these are the ones that are targeted.[/QU

So what can a guard do with 1700 passengers that a driver can't do?

Click to expand...

And you used to work on the railway ?

Deadly Danson · Aug 9, 2016

beorhthelm said:
having a guard on a train half a dozen carriages up, in their little cabin, is going to keep the ladies safe? this sort of crass fear mongering doesnt help.

What little cabin would this be?
A guard should walk up and down the train and at least act as a deterrent. If someone presses the emergency alarm I can't do much on my own but at least I can get the guard to investigate. I am the first to admit that some, but by no means all, guards can be a little lazy but that is a matter of training. Only in the last couple of weeks I have needed the guard to help get a member of the public arrested. Sure, i could do this myself but not without calling the signaller, shutting down the cab and walking down the train to investigate and then do all that in reverse to get started again. Having a guard in that instance probably saved 10 minutes or so of blocking the whole line.

British Bulldog · Aug 9, 2016

Ernest said:
British Bulldog said:

And you used to work on the railway ?

Click to expand...

Yes I did Ernest but as with everything times move on and people have to move with them, Getting rid of guards is not going to make the railway collapse and in fact it might lead to a lot less unnecessary cancellations. I admire people standing up for their jobs but I think this one is a losing battle.

Deadly Danson · Aug 9, 2016

British Bulldog said:
So what can a guard do with 1700 passengers that a driver can't do?

What an odd question.

Spiros · Aug 9, 2016

Deadly Danson said:
One has a maximum of around 85 passengers, the other around 1700. A huge difference. One is 31 ft long, the other can be around 800 ft long.
Even before this dispute I would never recommend a lone female travelling late at night on a guard less train as these are the ones that are targeted.

Every Southern train I have ever caught late(ish) at night is virtually guardless while it's moving as they very rarely venture out of the compartment at the rear of the train, except to check the doors at the virtually empty stations. If you think the existing guards provide any sort of security for lone travelling females at night then - in my experience - you're living in a parallel universe

Ernest · Aug 9, 2016

British Bulldog said:
Ernest said:

Yes I did Ernest but as with everything times move on and people have to move with them, Getting rid of guards is not going to make the railway collapse and in fact it might lead to a lot less unnecessary cancellations. I admire people standing up for their jobs but I think this one is a losing battle.

Click to expand...

But it will make things a lot less safer for passengers and staff, last one up from Littlehampton on a Friday or Saturday night with just a driver to drive the train, do all the despatch, deal with any fracas , deal with all the idiots blocking doors etc, deal with the drunks on the platform near the edge and you think that is safer than having a guard there as well ?

British Bulldog · Aug 9, 2016

Ernest said:
British Bulldog said:

But it will make things a lot less safer for passengers and staff, last one up from Littlehampton on a Friday or Saturday night with just a driver to drive the train, do all the despatch, deal with any fracas , deal with all the idiots blocking doors etc, deal with the drunks on the platform near the edge and you think that is safer than having a guard there as well ?

Click to expand...

In my experience if a guard gets a problem he/she does one of 2 things, Tells the driver or calls the police Either way somebody else has to deal with the problem.

Deadly Danson · Aug 9, 2016

Spiros said:
Every Southern train I have ever caught late(ish) at night is virtually guardless while it's moving as they very rarely venture out of the compartment at the rear of the train, except to check the doors at the virtually empty stations. If you think the existing guards provide any sort of security for lone travelling females at night then - in my experience - you're living in a parallel universe

Disagree and that's from my parallel universe where I drive a lot of those services and regularly need to call upon the guard to deal with any number of issues. Even if the guard is in the rear cab - some do and I'm never happy when they do - they are still there to respond and passengers know they are there and consequently act as a deterrent.

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