[Politics] Brexit

Deleted member 22389 · Mar 3, 2017

cunning fergus said:
There are thousands of EU nationals in our prisons with convictions for serious crimes such as murder, rape etc.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ls-awaiting-deportation-from-uk-a7063026.html

Poles top the list..........British citizens need protecting too.

The facts are these people probably wouldn't have been able to get in to this country if we had a proper border control in the first place. Just highlights another issue with free movement. It's costs us money to convict these people, and it costs us money to house these people in our prisons. Since we are one the largest contributors to the EU pot along with Germany, France, it's clear as day that we are getting a raw deal here like many other things.

To make things fair their governments should be paying our government for their stay or they should be sent out of this country to serve the remainder of their time in their own prisons. Another reason why many of us voted Leave.

larus · Mar 3, 2017

Alex said:
But this issue is not an EU competency (responsibility) and there is no current legal basis for it to be so; the immigration, residency requirements and status etc of non-EU citizens living, working, residing within the EU is a competency of individual member states. They each have there own rules and requirements for non-EU citizens, as does the UK.

I totally understand that. The issue is that there are citizens on both 'sides' (UK and rest of EU) who will all have their status changed on the same day. The UK is willing to resolve this issue quickly and amicably, yet the EU is not, but for some reason it's the UK who are seen to be the bad guys here.

You seem to accept that it's OK for the UK nationals working in the EU to be uncertain, but that it\'s not OK for the EU citizens in the UK. That appears to me to be a very strange logic.

All of these citizens (UK and EU) are currently benefitting from the same legal framework. All the UK is saying is that when this changes, then it changes for everyone. That to me seems a very reasonable stance.

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 3, 2017

larus said:
I don't get the big issue with this. The U.K. Government has stated it was willing to sort this issue out before the negotiations started, but this was rejected by the EU. But the usual idiots seem to think that the problem is with the U.K. and not the EU.

If the EU was that concerned about the uncertainty for the millions of EU/UK citizens currently living/working abroad, this issue could quite easily have been agreed. It's the EU putting the block on things, not the UK.

If you don't agree with it then fine. If you don't get it, you're stupid. Both sides of the argument are pretty simple to understand.

Soulman · Mar 3, 2017

larus said:
I totally understand that. The issue is that there are citizens on both 'sides' (UK and rest of EU) who will all have their status changed on the same day. The UK is willing to resolve this issue quickly and amicably, yet the EU is not, but for some reason it's the UK who are seen to be the bad guys here.

You seem to accept that it's OK for the UK nationals working in the EU to be uncertain, but that it\'s not OK for the EU citizens in the UK. That appears to me to be a very strange logic.

All of these citizens (UK and EU) are currently benefitting from the same legal framework. All the UK is saying is that when this changes, then it changes for everyone. That to me seems a very reasonable stance.

In a nutshell.

DataPoint · Mar 3, 2017

Alex said:
But this issue is not an EU competency (responsibility) and there is no current legal basis for it to be so; the immigration, residency requirements and status etc of non-EU citizens living, working, residing within the EU is a competency of individual member states. They each have there own rules and requirements for non-EU citizens, as does the UK.

Which might lead to different agreement's for different nationals living hear - justifying a sensibly cautious approach before talks start.

Murray 17 · Mar 3, 2017

Baldseagull said:
If you see someone about to drill a hole in a boat to let the water out, do you think you should give their idea a chance, or try and make them see sense?

Because that drill you see is not going to be used on a sinking ship. The sailors have decided to take the drill and their other possessions and move to a better ship. One that is steered and controlled by our own captain.

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 3, 2017

Murray 17 said:
Because that drill you see is not going to be used on a sinking ship. The sailors have decided to take the drill and their other possessions and move to a better ship. One that is steered and controlled by our own captain.

......whilst mainland Europe relaxes on a sunny beach laughing.

cunning fergus · Mar 3, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
......whilst mainland Europe relaxes on a sunny beach laughing.

Given the crippling unemployment levels in many southern EU member states, particularly amongst their young, no doubt there is plenty of opportunity to loll about on the beach.

http://www.cityam.com/256642/eurozone-youth-unemployment-rises-sharply-despite-wider-eu

Keeps them off the streets too.........double bubble.

The Clamp · Mar 3, 2017

bashlsdir said:
The facts are these people probably wouldn't have been able to get in to this country if we had a proper border control in the first place. Just highlights another issue with free movement. It's costs us money to convict these people, and it costs us money to house these people in our prisons. Since we are one the largest contributors to the EU pot along with Germany, France, it's clear as day that we are getting a raw deal here like many other things.

To make things fair their governments should be paying our government for their stay or they should be sent out of this country to serve the remainder of their time in their own prisons. Another reason why many of us voted Leave.

Christ! You don't half whinge and moan. "We're not getting a fair deal" "why should we tell them before they tell us" "the nasty EU won't let us leave quietly with all our toys".

You lot threw a tantrum and voted for the complete unknown so don't go bitching and crying when you don't get everything exactly the way you think it should be. Bunch of moaning little bitches.

Lincoln Imp · Mar 3, 2017

The Rivet said:
You would be wrong then but hey, you know that feeling well enough.

What? You know the reasons why everyone who voted Brexit voted Brexit? I'd have thought there were lots of reasons but heck, you know best.

Guinness Boy · Mar 3, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Given the crippling unemployment levels in many southern EU member states, particularly amongst their young, no doubt there is plenty of opportunity to loll about on the beach.

http://www.cityam.com/256642/eurozone-youth-unemployment-rises-sharply-despite-wider-eu

Keeps them off the streets too.........double bubble.

Youth unemployment in the UK is above the average for developed OECD countries. It costs us £45 billion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-unemployment-leaves-45bn-hole-in-uk-economy/

Southern Europe has always lagged behind Northern Europe. Spain, for example, has poor agricultural soil compared to the north and could only easily trade only with Portugal and North Africa due to the Pyranees blocking them off. Greece has so many islands in its territorial waters that the US used to subsidise its Navy patrols. When they stopped the Greeks had to keep spending anyway. Southern Italy is far less developed that Northern Italy due mainly to its geography and historic trade and commerce links.

If the leather skinned wrinklies get repatriated and people stop going there on holiday due to visa needs and greater expense there'll be even more of them lolling about on the beach.

How about you have a go at reading someone informed instead of your usual five minute google? I'd suggest this which confirms all the facts above.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25135194-prisoners-of-geography

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 3, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Given the crippling unemployment levels in many southern EU member states, particularly amongst their young, no doubt there is plenty of opportunity to loll about on the beach.

http://www.cityam.com/256642/eurozone-youth-unemployment-rises-sharply-despite-wider-eu

Keeps them off the streets too.........double bubble.

I'm sure the Greek's will be enjoying the double benefit of their EU assisted rising economy (http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/greek-n...economy-did-better-than-expected-in-2016.html) and the EU maximum hours directive to enjoy some quality time. Who wouldn't want to enjoy the spoils of success?

As an aside, I'm a fast runner...if you need a ringer in your race to the bottom just call. Always happy to help.

Herr Tubthumper · Mar 3, 2017

Guinness Boy said:
How about you have a go at reading someone informed instead of your usual five minute google?

Oh come on. Some of us like Unstable Fergus' Google nonsense. His recent rubbish about the US was amusing.

studio150 · Mar 3, 2017

bashlsdir said:
The facts are these people probably wouldn't have been able to get in to this country if we had a proper border control in the first place. Just highlights another issue with free movement. It's costs us money to convict these people, and it costs us money to house these people in our prisons. Since we are one the largest contributors to the EU pot along with Germany, France, it's clear as day that we are getting a raw deal here like many other things.

To make things fair their governments should be paying our government for their stay or they should be sent out of this country to serve the remainder of their time in their own prisons. Another reason why many of us voted Leave.

Don't forget the unpaid parking and speeding fines I'm surprised you haven't asked for the tunnel to be closed to those pesky foreigners

beorhthelm · Mar 3, 2017

Guinness Boy said:
Youth unemployment in the UK is above the average for developed OECD countries. It costs us £45 billion.

you might not want to take that claim at face value, look at the numbers , consider how we compare to EU, and note the number of countries with lower youth unemployment export their youth overseas.

cunning fergus · Mar 3, 2017

Guinness Boy said:
Youth unemployment in the UK is above the average for developed OECD countries. It costs us £45 billion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-unemployment-leaves-45bn-hole-in-uk-economy/

Southern Europe has always lagged behind Northern Europe. Spain, for example, has poor agricultural soil compared to the north and could only easily trade only with Portugal and North Africa due to the Pyranees blocking them off. Greece has so many islands in its territorial waters that the US used to subsidise its Navy patrols. When they stopped the Greeks had to keep spending anyway. Southern Italy is far less developed that Northern Italy due mainly to its geography and historic trade and commerce links.

If the leather skinned wrinklies get repatriated and people stop going there on holiday due to visa needs and greater expense there'll be even more of them lolling about on the beach.

How about you have a go at reading someone informed instead of your usual five minute google? I'd suggest this which confirms all the facts above.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25135194-prisoners-of-geography

Sure, things are not perfect here but as Len McClusky correctly (and finally) identified when we get back control of our labour market we will be able to manage the interests of the workers more effectively.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...kers-do-best-when-labour-supply-is-controlled

I know it will be a bitter pill for you rabid pro EU free market Tories to swallow, but finally UK Govts' will be able to manage labour supply and demand. This should be great news for the interests of British low and unskilled workers in particular, so long held in contempt by the very politicians that should represent them.

As for the moribund economies of Southern Europe, it's a shame your insight was not shared by the EU technocrats when they were creating the euro and disregarding all the advice they were given about the consequences of tying such varied economies in to a shared currency without the infrastructure to deal with the very crisis that has now occurred.

There is no good news on this now, just the never ending cycles of bail outs, QE, and disintegrating living standards in those countries most affected which will leave them permanently damaged.

I don't need to educate myself about the unprecedented migration of nearly 500,000 of its well educated citizens hollowing out the country..........

http://www.dw.com/en/greece-central...0-young-educated-greeks-since-2008/a-19373527

Guinness Boy · Mar 3, 2017

beorhthelm said:
you might not want to take that claim at face value, look at the numbers , consider how we compare to EU, and note the number of countries with lower youth unemployment export their youth overseas.

I'm sorry, I don't get it. We are above average for OECD countries. I didn't mention the EU. However, we are also above Germany, Austria and Latvia and lower than Italy, Greece and Spain. My whole post was illustrating why that was the case and what might cause it, not to mention speculating about the further adverse affects if British tourism drops to those countries. The high youth unemployment in those countries would naturally make the EU weighted average above the UKs. That isn't to say we don't have a problem because we do, to the tune of £45 billion.

Also, are you saying we're overrun with Finns, Spaniards and Italians

cunning fergus · Mar 3, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
I'm sure the Greek's will be enjoying the double benefit of their EU assisted rising economy (http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/greek-n...economy-did-better-than-expected-in-2016.html) and the EU maximum hours directive to enjoy some quality time. Who wouldn't want to enjoy the spoils of success?

As an aside, I'm a fast runner...if you need a ringer in your race to the bottom just call. Always happy to help.

You think the Greeks are enjoying their current crisis?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-issue-it-is-a-humanitarian-one-a7600636.html

This won't be resolved until the Germans essentially bail-in the Greeks by transferring capital, we all know it and we know why it's not happening. The Germans have perfected their "race to the bottom" approach for the Greeks, Italians, Spanish et al........thank God we are out.

Enjoy the basement.

cunning fergus · Mar 3, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
Oh come on. Some of us like Unstable Fergus' Google nonsense. His recent rubbish about the US was amusing.

Ha.....we'll see. Time will tell.

Soulman · Mar 3, 2017

studio150 said:
Don't forget the unpaid parking and speeding fines I'm surprised you haven't asked for the tunnel to be closed to those pesky foreigners

You always seem surprised when the thoughts in your own head have not actally been stated. Is it a sort of put it out there and see if anyone actually states it.

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