[Other Sport] Chris Froome cleared over Vuelta drugs test - case dropped

Triggaaar said:

I don't really understand. He had twice the allowed dose, right? And if so, how is that ok? And why is it politics? I'm not trying to be lazy and not read up on it myself, but I imagine you've read quite a lot on it, and understand the background well, and can probably summarise for us all better than a google search.

Presumably that's only disgusting if he hasn't cheated. How is taking twice the allowance not cheating?

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It wasn't twice the dose, it was 19% higher, and that was due to dehydration. Thats the problem with this being reported in the press and social media as a failed drugs test-it wasn't and never was. It was 1 reading from 20 odd tests taken in the TDF, plus the hundreds of others he has taken.It was a little high, usually these things aren't reported , this one was. This isn't like EPO or other performance enhancing drugs, its like comparing mouthwash with neat gin!.

Triggaaar said:

Thanks for the reply.Not sure there has to be a limit, but if it's not performance enhancing, why not make the limit 10 times what it is, and then if they fail the test, they deserve the hassle that follows?

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As said the whole Therapeutic Use Exemption grey area needs an overhaul.

The cheaters will always be one step ahead of the testers.
l have never felt that was the case here and clearly when presented with all the evidence neither did WADA.

McTavish said:

that AOS (the Tour organisers) banned Froome the day before he was acquitted with it being extremely unlikely that they didn't know that this would happen; Anglo-Saxon vs Euro mainstream etc etc

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So has he been banned from competing in something?

Triggaaar said:

So has he been banned from competing in something?

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Yesterday he was banned by the Tour organisers (ASO) as they didn't want him besmirching the good name of Le Tour competing with a WADA case hanging over him, as they are fully justified in doing as per the by-laws of their event.

Today they are rather embarrassed by their poor timing.

Triggaaar said:

So has he been banned from competing in something?

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Not sure banned is the right word, excluded from entering Le Tour for approx. 23 hours.

Froome is a beast and Sky's tactics and planning are pretty amazing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44372328

Bold Seagull said:

It would seem pretty straight forward to be honest; if you're tested for 21 consecutive days (just in that race, let alone all the days he led Le Tour) where all other days were below the testing level, and one day was inexplicably high, then you have an issue with the test results because if he had 2000ng in his wee on a Tuesday, stands to reason it would also be high on the Monday and Wednesday.

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Even more so I read something today that he wasn't twice over the limit, on that particular test, but something like 20%. So for 19 days or whatever it was fine and one day it was 20% more than it otherwise should have be.

pb21 said:

Even more so I read something today that he wasn't twice over the limit, on that particular test, but something like 20%. So for 19 days or whatever it was fine and one day it was 20% more than it otherwise should have be.

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Then fine the next day.

Stat Brother said:

Yesterday he was banned by the Tour organisers (ASO) as they didn't want him besmirching the good name of Le Tour competing with a WADA case hanging over him, as they are fully justified in doing as per the by-laws of their event.

Today they are rather embarrassed by their poor timing.

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Bold Seagull said:

Not sure banned is the right word, excluded from entering Le Tour for approx. 23 hours.

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So excluded, and then un-excluded.

Perhaps the OP should change the thread title before NSC gets sued for libel.

Triggaaar said:

Perhaps the OP should change the thread title before NSC gets sued for libel.

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As when pointed out to him when he initially posted it.
It would seem there's one rule of us and one rule for the owner.

Weststander said:

French legends Jalabert and Virenque were caught high level doping, including a failed EPO test.

Did they have their titles and category winning jerseys scrubbed from the record books? No.

There's always been a very special interest in investigating English-speaking riders, the 'interlopers' in a continental european mad sport. Ironically, due to great investigative work by english speaking journalists. Do the french and italian for exampe, zealously investigate their heros?

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Yes the anti English speaking in the peleton definitely was a thing, ironically they ostracised Greg LeMond for daring to accuse them of taking drugs. Completely blanked from the sport until they realised be is possibly one of the few clean winners.

Triggaaar said:

Thanks for the reply.Not sure there has to be a limit, but if it's not performance enhancing, why not make the limit 10 times what it is, and then if they fail the test, they deserve the hassle that follows?

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I really dont know why its such an issue. I and many other asthma sufferers take as its called in the UK Ventolin apparently it is a thing with us cyclists. This is the blue inhaler and its not easy to regulate the dose, just had my asthma review and i have apparently not been using it properly for the last 2 years (breathing it in too much and not getting the full benefit of one puff). All it does is open your airways to what they should be to stop the restriction in breathing due to inflamation due to asthma so its the same as if you didnt have asthma if you take a puff and it lasts for a short period of time.

Saunders said:

Yes the anti English speaking in the peleton definitely was a thing, ironically they ostracised Greg LeMond for daring to accuse them of taking drugs. Completely blanked from the sport until they realised be is possibly one of the few clean winners.

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I remember Roche being spat at throughout the 1987 Giro. Not due to drugs at that stage, but because he was as good as their local heroes. The American riders were hated, not helped by LeMond beating French luvvie Fignon on the final day's time trial in the Tour in 1989.

Saunders said:

I really dont know why its such an issue. I and many other asthma sufferers take as its called in the UK Ventolin

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I think Ventolin is just a brand of salbutamol. I know what it's supposed to do, my daughter has it had it since she was a baby. What I didn't realise back then was that so many top sportsmen use it.

Is it simply that a very large percentage of the population has asthma to some extent, but doesn't realise it as we're not pushing our bodies?

Triggaaar said:

I think Ventolin is just a brand of salbutamol. I know what it's supposed to do, my daughter has it had it since she was a baby. What I didn't realise back then was that so many top sportsmen use it.

Is it simply that a very large percentage of the population has asthma to some extent, but doesn't realise it as we're not pushing our bodies?

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I think that's exactly it Trig. From what I've read.

Interesting thread. Some comments

1. Salbutamol ('chemical' name) is Ventolin (trade name) like 'crisps' and 'Golden Wonder'.

2. It is a beta2 agonist which means it mimics the effects of the body's adrenaline (a blood borne chemical) or noradrenaline (a similar chemical released from 'sympathetic' nerves) on the beta2 receptor. This is one of several receptors located in different bits of the body that respond in different ways to 'sympathetic' agonists (the others are alpha1 which leads to blood vessel constriction, and beta1 which leads to an increase in the rate and force of the heart, among other things).

3. No agonist is completely selective so althouh salbutamol is 'beta2 selective' it can, at very high dose, cause some activation of beta1 receptors. Heart rate and cardiac output would then increase. If this occurs it is arguably 'performance enhancing' which is probably the reason for the rules about dosage. Personally I doubt there is much of an effect even at 'heroic' dosage and I wouldn't consider taking salbutamol of I wanted to increase my indurance. Increased heart rate (tachycardia) would be a side effect of overdosage, and it would be accompanied by dizziness and feeling unwell - of no use to a cyclist.

4. There are beta2 receptors in the arterioles leading to skeletal muscle. Thus in theory salbutamol might increase blood flow to the cycling muscles - performance enhancing. However this is unlikely to be remotely relevant because a cyclist will have his skeletal muscle arterioles maximally dilated during and due to the exercise of cycling (this is called hyperaemia and is a natural process - exercising muscles have increased blood flow). There is a condition called 'Claudication' (named after the limping Roman emperor, Claudius) where there is a fixed obstruction of a large vessel leading to a muscle in the leg. This makes the muscle lose blood flow and become weak (ischaemic). Drugs can be given that dilate the muscles arterioles (including beta2 agonists). However blood flow does not increase because these vessels are already maximally dilated (due to the upstream restriction making the miscle hypoxic/ischaemic), but not receiving extra blood because of the upstream obstruction of the main artery. I mention all this to illustrate the difference between theory and practice. In theory a beta2 agonst could increase sketal muscle blood flow. In practice the effect, if any, is hard to obtain at safe dosage, and is effectively irrelevant.

5. As an aside, a clownish GP thouht I had developed asthma (at the tender age of 59 - it doesn't happen) when I had respiratory issues and prescribed me Ventolin. It had absolutely no effect (because my respiratory tubes were already dilated). A week later, a smarter GP diagnosed a lung full of fluid (mild pneumonia) and gave me some drugs that actually worked.

6. Salbutamol is metabolized in the liver so I am not sure why tests are done to detect it in the urine (I have looked this up and remain confused). I would have thought the tests would be to detect the metabolite. Drugs primarily eliminated in the urine will hang around longer in the blood during extreme exercise due to the fact that blood flow to the kidney falls during heavy exercise (redirected to skletal muscle). I would have thought that the only reliable estimate of salbutamol in the blood would require a blood sample. Anyway...

Does Broome have actual asthma? If he does then there is nothing to see here. If not, he (or someone in his team) is being silly, but no more silly than getting the lad to drink litres of herbal tea.

Thanks Harry.

Harry Wilson's tackle said:

5. As an aside, a clownish GP thouht I had developed asthma (at the tender age of 59 - it doesn't happen)

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Although I accept your word that you can't develop asthma at such an age, is it not the case than many adults will have it and not know? Given that both Brad & Froome are both asthmatic, despite being the last people we would think could be.

I tried my daughter's blue inhaler for the first time when I was about 44, and it worked a treat as I was quite wheezy at the time (more than once). I thought perhaps I had asthma, and booked tests, but when the test date came I had a cold, and they told me that they can only tell I've got asthma if the salbutamol improves my breathing when I've not got a cold etc. Not sure if that's accurate or not.

Triggaaar said:

Thanks Harry.Although I accept your word that you can't develop asthma at such an age, is it not the case than many adults will have it and not know? Given that both Brad & Froome are both asthmatic, despite being the last people we would think could be.

I tried my daughter's blue inhaler for the first time when I was about 44, and it worked a treat as I was quite wheezy at the time (more than once). I thought perhaps I had asthma, and booked tests, but when the test date came I had a cold, and they told me that they can only tell I've got asthma if the salbutamol improves my breathing when I've not got a cold etc. Not sure if that's accurate or not.

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Trig, you are right - asthma can go undiagnosed. Also, yes, if you have a cold with lung congestion, the non-congested bronchioles will dilate as a reflex, so the ventolin has no scope to do anything. I may stand corrected over ventolin not making breathing easier if you have no bronchoconstriction, and it may not have worked on me at the time I had the infection because of the infection. That said I tried a few puffs later when well and it still seemed to do bugger all. My old boss who had shocking allergen-induced asthma was transformed by ventolin and the effects were immediate and massive, so I suspect it is very specific for bronchoconstriction, which makes it a useful drug. If that makes sense....

As for me and the GP....I am completely non-atopic: I don't have any allergies; I can merrily inhale pollen with no ill effect; I have no history of respiratory difficulty; I was at the time 59. Asthma (like eczema) are prevalent in kids, and both are more likely to decome less of an issue as you get older. Therefore any half-witted clinician would rule out asthma as a cause of my acute symptoms. At the time the GP was pissed off because I came in with two issues and had not booked a 'double appointment' (evidently a new thing in the surgery), and had actually bollocked me. She then went into irritated autopilot. I know the NHS has been systematically undermined over the years by politicians who 'secretly' think it is a load of old socialist bollocks, but a lot of the crap is due to second rate doctors. I have just found that I have had repeated fasting blood tests but none of the samples have been used to check my blood sugar since 2004, because some clown thought I needed only lipid tests. I was diagnosed with pre-type2 diabetes (fixable by diet) in 2000, changed my diet, and saw an improvement. So I go in next week, 14 years later, to see if I'm still on the right track. WT actual F?

All the best

Saunders said:

I really dont know why its such an issue. I and many other asthma sufferers take as its called in the UK Ventolin apparently it is a thing with us cyclists. This is the blue inhaler and its not easy to regulate the dose, just had my asthma review and i have apparently not been using it properly for the last 2 years (breathing it in too much and not getting the full benefit of one puff). All it does is open your airways to what they should be to stop the restriction in breathing due to inflamation due to asthma so its the same as if you didnt have asthma if you take a puff and it lasts for a short period of time.

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My other half is severly asthmatic, and has been since he was five years old. I've seen him struggle to breathe, and have to take Ventolin, just so he can exhale. It's not even the most important drug he has to use, as the steroid inhaler Seretide is vital as a preventative measure (see also Becatide).