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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?

  • Total voters
    1,081


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,287
Gwylan said:
We could have stayed in the EEA for a start - or something similar. Or negotiated another customs union deal.
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to reopen this old wound, we technically haven't started any procedure to leave the EEA. i was of the opinion this is being kept in reserve, on both sides, in some sort get out if things go wrong. our politicians have not shown such depth of vision, so suppose its simply being ignored.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,465
The Fatherland
WATFORD zero said:
You've made a lot of very sensible points.

Unfortunately (and there is no way of knowing) I suspect that you don't represent a large proportion of the leave voters and that your preferred exit would be seen as one of the 'softer' options.

However, the main thing that is really worrying me (and lots of others) now though, is how do we go forward from here ? Because I am really struggling to find a way out of this position causing minimum damage.

Any ideas ?
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The country is divided, and turning ugly and goimg backwards. I struggle to see how peace and progressiveness will break out any time soon. I’m a reasonably forgiving person but it will take a lot for me to move on from what the Tory party and the leave voters have done; probably never. People will be living with this ****-wittery for decades. We’ll see.
 


H

Hotchilidog

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2009
8,688
beorhthelm said:
it wasnt just the leave campaign high on slogans and sound bites, both sides painted thier vision of future possibilities. both were/are wrong.

the current state was not really that predicable. we could reasonably expect the leaders of leave to have some ideas and strategy sketched out, working groups, think tanks and other policy wonks to have outline plans for implementation on leaving, new trade policy, dealing with alternative scenarios. turns out they'd done sweet fa of this. or at least anyone that had (because i know some have) where ignored or overlooked. and the government deliberately prevented civil service from making any provision, which they would normally do to plan for future events. it didn't need to be like this.

generally, we have all been let down by politicans here. quelle surprise.
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Your final sentiment is something we can all agree on.

Whilst hyperbole was not exclusively the preserve of the leave campaign, the remain camp was more honest in suggesting that Brexit would cause problems (to put it mildly).

The leave campaign did not set out a viable vision of a future for this country, it just didn't. Given the momentous nature of the change they were campaigning for they should have done this both positively and honestly, they failed on both counts and they have bequeathed this current shambles to the country. We are two years into the process and those charged with negotiating our exit from the EU are still unable to agree amongst themselves let alone agree anything with the EU. It was all totally predictable.

We have all, indeed, been let down by politicians here.
 


pb21

pb21

Well-known member
Apr 23, 2010
6,280
Lincoln Imp said:
But he's right that you can't blame everyone who voted Leave for this. As I said on here before the referendum - the Leave campaign had all the sexy songs. Its messages were beguiling. And they were pitched in a way that meant they could mean whatever the listeners wanted them to mean.
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I would also suggest that the listeners were primed to want things that are unfeasible. It was irresponsible IMO of some of the Brexiteers to paint a picture of Brexit that wasn't going to ever be borne out.
 


G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,336
Uffern
beorhthelm said:
it wasnt just the leave campaign high on slogans and sound bites, both sides painted thier vision of future possibilities. both were/are wrong.

the current state was not really that predicable. we could reasonably expect the leaders of leave to have some ideas and strategy sketched out, working groups, think tanks and other policy wonks to have outline plans for implementation on leaving, new trade policy, dealing with alternative scenarios. turns out they'd done sweet fa of this. or at least anyone that had (because i know some have) where ignored or overlooked. and the government deliberately prevented civil service from making any provision, which they would normally do to plan for future events. it didn't need to be like this.

generally, we have all been let down by politicans here. quelle surprise.
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Exactly. It beggars belief that CMD didn't have any contingency plan in the event of a 'leave' vote. And it beggars belief that the civil service didn't swing into action at once. The first meeting between Davis and Barnier sums it up: the EU team turned up with thick files, the UK negotiators turned up with a single sheet of paper. It reminded me of doing my homework on the bus to school - you do the minimum but it's scarcely the best way forward.

pb21 said:
I would also suggest that the listeners were primed to want things that are unfeasible. It was irresponsible IMO of some of the Brexiteers to paint a picture of Brexit that wasn't going to ever be borne out.
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Well, that's what I said, all this talk of cake and eating it was clearly nonsense and when the negotiations began, I thought the UK team would be more sensible and would see what they would get. I really didn't expect them to think - it's the impossible or nothing.
 




G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,336
Uffern
WATFORD zero said:
Any ideas ?
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If I had any ideas, I'd be on six-figure salary in a posh restaurant in Brussels right now, not in a room in Coldean :)

If I were PM, I can tell you one thing I'd have done. I'd have got a negotiating team made up of Tory and Labour members and made sure they could put together proposals that would easily get through parliament (negating any dissident backbenchers and the DUP).

I'd also have put together a cabinet of the most capable ministers not a cabinet where people get a job on account of being a Brexiteer. Any sensible politician wouldn't have had Johnson anywhere near a cabinet post.
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,766
Gwylan said:
If I had any ideas, I'd be on six-figure salary in a posh restaurant in Brussels right now, not in a room in Coldean :)

If I were PM, I can tell you one thing I'd have done. I'd have got a negotiating team made up of Tory and Labour members and made sure they could put together proposals that would easily get through parliament (negating any dissident backbenchers and the DUP).

I'd also have put together a cabinet of the most capable ministers not a cabinet where people get a job on account of being a Brexiteer. Any sensible politician wouldn't have had Johnson anywhere near a cabinet post.
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But that would ensure an extremely soft Brexit as the vast majority of senior politicians were remainers (as was Boris until he chose the wrong time to gamble his future :lolol:). Because if you are going to be in Government, screwing up the economy is not the best way to start implementing your political ideals, (from whichever side of the fence).

Unfortunately, that sort of sensible thinking and lack of political idealism, would ensure you definitely never become PM :thumbsup:
 






Two Professors

Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
Hindsight is a wonderful thing,makes even Watford Gap seem less than stupid,but is not much use.Has anybody found out yet if Junker included chlorinated chicken,in with the GM soya and fracked LNG?Or hasn't he sobered up yet?:)
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,766
Oh well, that was a nice mature discussion while it lasted :rolleyes:

Looks like the morning's nap is over, back to

WoodCarpet-Engineered-Wood-Fiber-by-Zeager-Bothers4.jpg
 


L

Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
Two Professors said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing,makes even Watford Gap seem less than stupid,but is not much use.Has anybody found out yet if Junker included chlorinated chicken,in with the GM soya and fracked LNG?Or hasn't he sobered up yet?:)
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The Thursday morning conversation between people with different opinions was going well, and then you turned up with this.

I suppose we should be grateful though - it illustrates the levels of logic, argument and detail among so many visceral leavers. I'm reminded of a journalist I worked with at the beginning of my working life. He was assigned to interview Tony Benn. He was thrilled. Benn was a hero of his. Off he went and later returned with copious notes and his little tape recorder, very happy. A few hours later, as I left for home, I found him at his desk surrounded by scraps of paper. I asked him how his piece was going. He looked at me morosely. "He didn't," he said sadly, "actually say anything."
 




Two Professors

Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum




Two Professors

Two Professors

Two Mad Professors
Jul 13, 2009
7,617
Multicultural Brum
Lincoln Imp said:
The Thursday morning conversation between people with different opinions was going well, and then you turned up with this.

I suppose we should be grateful though - it illustrates the levels of logic, argument and detail among so many visceral leavers. I'm reminded of a journalist I worked with at the beginning of my working life. He was assigned to interview Tony Benn. He was thrilled. Benn was a hero of his. Off he went and later returned with copious notes and his little tape recorder, very happy. A few hours later, as I left for home, I found him at his desk surrounded by scraps of paper. I asked him how his piece was going. He looked at me morosely. "He didn't," he said sadly, "actually say anything."
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I presume that means you have no information on chlorinated chicken then?Hope your journo friend had a good cry and went off to find useful employment,as saying nothing seems to be a trait of the trade (politicians and journos).
 




G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,336
Uffern
WATFORD zero said:
Because if you are going to be in Government, screwing up the economy is not the best way to start implementing your political ideals, (from whichever side of the fence).
:
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Precisely. Going for a no-deal Brexit is the worst of all worlds and will probably ensure the Tories are out of power for a generation ... so it's not all bad.
The reason I said that if I were in power I'd have worked with Labour is for that exact reason. If things go badly wrong, then Labour wouldn't be able to make political capital of it. If things go badly wrong now (and it's not looking good for the Tories) then the government is going to get all the blame.
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,766
Gwylan said:
Precisely. Going for a no-deal Brexit is the worst of all worlds and will probably ensure the Tories are out of power for a generation ... so it's not all bad.
The reason I said that if I were in power I'd have worked with Labour is for that exact reason. If things go badly wrong, then Labour wouldn't be able to make political capital of it. If things go badly wrong now (and it's not looking good for the Tories) then the government is going to get all the blame.
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I've always thought proportional representation makes the major parties more accountable and stops some of this 'it's all their fault' mentality.

Anyway, the trouble with Brexit is the whole thing politically has been about trying to unite the Tory party, and f*** what happens to the country. Cameron tried for 6 years, thought he'd got the perfect solution :facepalm: cocked it up completely and then ran off.

Then instead of trying to deal with the clusterf*** she had inherited, May spent the next 2 years fudging and trying to keep her party united. I know we won't agree :catfight:, but I do think the situation was completely predictable

Anyway, I think it's eventually dawning on people exactly what a momentous cock-up it is, but what everyone wants to know now is what happens next :shrug:
 
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G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,336
Uffern
WATFORD zero said:
Then instead of trying to deal with the clusterf*** she had inherited, May spent the next 2 years fudging and trying to keep her party united. I know we won't agree :catfight:, but I do think the situation was completely predictable
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Maybe it was predictable. I took it that the vote was very close that there would need to be some sort of compromise. If Remain had won narrowly, then Cameron could have gone back to the EU and said "Look, it's close, if you don't go a bit further in meeting some of our concerns, I'll call another referendum and this time the government will be in favour of leaving."

If there was a narrow vote for Leave then my thought was that there would be a need for compromise. Leave, yes, but make sure it's not too disruptive. Instead May went for an option that's supported by very few people and could spell disaster for her. I really don't think anyone could have predicted such a self-destructive act.
 




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