[Football] VAR

Nixonator · Feb 28, 2018

People waking up to it I see. Should be nowhere near football and just because of bad decisions people cry out for it. Improve refereeing standards and it would not be needed. Wrong decisions are part of the game.

Celebrating a goal means so much in football with the addictive euphoria, it's absolute shit that it can be taken away.

It wasn't so long ago that a goal wasn't called for the ball bouncing about 2 metres over the line in a world cup. THAT needed addressing. This is just so unncessary.

m20gull · Feb 28, 2018

theroyal said:
Well, Tottenham fans would argue he continues his run-up.

This is why VAR doesn't work. Too much of football is a grey-area, and open to interpretation (and that's why decisions take an age). It's not like rugby or tennis where the decisions are black-and-white. A lot of is down to opinion.

I'm no Tottenham fan but I would definitely argue he continues his run-up.

So we get VAR and, guess what, we're still debating opinions!

Neville's Breakfast · Feb 28, 2018

Giraffe said:
As I said right at the start of VAR it may kill football.

The balance is too much in favour of ruling goals out rather than goals in. Less goals mean worse football. Also the biggest single pleasure of football is scoring and celebrating a goal. If you take away that moment of joy then it becomes nothing. Totally futile.

People say it works in rugby, but that’s a totally different, stop start game, and a try does not mean as much as a goal does. It’s hat simple.

Bin it now.

VAR is continually defended by people who obsess on the smallest details of the rules and miss the bigger picture of the joy of football. To those people; you will by and large get your ‘correct decisions’ but they won’t be worth having as the game will be gone.

m20gull · Feb 28, 2018

Plooks said:
No. He stops, and then he starts another one. You can tell as his velocity goes to zero. It is black and white, not even a hint of grey.

The law is "completes" the run-up. I would still argue that when he first pauses he is feinting, as permitted, before completing his run-up.

Wozza · Feb 28, 2018

m20gull said:
I'm no Tottenham fan but I would definitely argue he continues his run-up.

WTF? He plants both feet. You aren't allowed to stop, then carry on and shoot.

m20gull · Feb 28, 2018

Wozza said:
WTF? He plants both feet. You aren't allowed to stop, then carry on and shoot.

In the law quoted in post 58 there is nothing to prevent you stopping during the run-up. The specific offence is feinting to kick the ball having completed the run-up. I can definitely see why that is not allowed but cannot see how any form of stuttering run-up is covered by the wording of the law.

GT49er · Feb 28, 2018

Isn't part of the problem that the authorities have made it all too complicated? Yes, there is obviously an advantage in having a fourth (or fifth or whatever) official watching all the detail that the cameras can supply. But, there should be no referrals or appeals to the VAR - the match should be played as before, with the on-field referee making the decisions. He would be in radio contact with the VAR - but the only involvement of the VAR should be entirely VAR lead - if the VAR sees that the ref has made a real ricket, or missed something serious that was not in his line of sight, then, and only then, the VAR would have a word in the ref's ear.

Wozza · Feb 28, 2018

m20gull said:
In the law quoted in post 58 there is nothing to prevent you stopping during the run-up. The specific offence is feinting to kick the ball having completed the run-up. I can definitely see why that is not allowed but cannot see how any form of stuttering run-up is covered by the wording of the law.

Yeah, fair shout. But I got penalised for stopping and re-starting AT SCHOOL and that was a looooooong time ago.

seagulls4ever · Feb 28, 2018

VAR has worked pretty well up until tonight, I think, despite people and the media claiming clearly correct decisions were 'controversial'. However, tonight those in charge did not appear to utilise VAR as it was intended - with corrections being made for a foul in the lead up to a goal, and the awarding of a penalty due to a foul being inside the box, which were not 'clear and obvious'. However, this is why it's being tested, and I expect everyone will learn from tonight to allow improvement of the process and decisions going forward.

TheJasperCo · Feb 28, 2018

I mentioned on a previous thread how I disliked it intensely (still do), and I was surprised to see so many people on here lauding it as the next big thing. I reckon it's too flawed: it ruins the flow of the game and the decisions are not cut-and-dry, black & white like you might expect.

Needs a serious rethink before the powers-that-be turn our wonderful game into a farce from the top down.

Every little change to officiating has been stupid/pointless: extra assistant behind each goal, stupid aerosol cans to mark out ten yards at FKs, now VAR. Ridiculous, poxy and gimmicky. And what about earpiece communications?! The officials still liaise with each other face-to-face when they discuss a controversial decision!!

A1X · Feb 28, 2018

I remember all this shrill whining and pearl-clutching when the introduced DRS into cricket a decade ago. Sure it wasn't perfect and it took them a few years of tweaking to get it right, but it works and is now an established part of the international game.

Some people despise change in any form. VAR is the future, whether some like it or not. Of course it's not perfect, but nothing ever is when first introduced. It took them a century to get the off-side rule working, and even then it's not faultless.

Easy 10 · Mar 1, 2018

I think we're losing sight of the fact that VAR is only supposed to intervene in the case of a clear and obvious error made by the referee. Tonight, he chalked off a Spurs goal on a highly MARGINAL decision, courtesy of the bloke watching it on telly in Heathrow. He actually didn't even bother going to the touchline to have a look for himself - he RULED OUT A GOAL after pressing his ear. And then not looking at it!!!

I'm sorry, but that is farcical. Quite apart from the other multiple VAR cluster****s that happened tonight (8 minutes worth of reviews, 5 minutes of added time ??), if we're going down this road, then there is literally no point in having a man in the middle.

Under the current format, VAR is a disaster. UEFA have already stated it will NOT be used in next seasons Champions League, and its pretty obvious why. Lets see a World Cup Final play out like tonight and see the fallout. Frankly, I can't bloody wait (unless England get stiffed).

spence · Mar 1, 2018

Easy 10 said:
I think we're losing sight of the fact that VAR is only supposed to intervene in the case of a clear and obvious error made by the referee. Tonight, he chalked off a Spurs goal on a highly MARGINAL decision, courtesy of the bloke watching it on telly in Heathrow. He actually didn't even bother going to the touchline to have a look for himself - he RULED OUT A GOAL after pressing his ear. And then not looking at it!!!

I'm sorry, but that is farcical. Quite apart from the other multiple VAR cluster****s that happened tonight (8 minutes worth of reviews, 5 minutes of added time ??), if we're going down this road, then there is literally no point in having a man in the middle.

Under the current format, VAR is a disaster. UEFA have already stated it will NOT be used in next seasons Champions League, and its pretty obvious why. Lets see a World Cup Final play out like tonight and see the fallout. Frankly, I can't bloody wait (unless England get stiffed).

Maybe put it down to teething problems. Var technology for football probably needs a couple of seasons not just a few matches.

Nixonator · Mar 1, 2018

seagulls4ever said:
VAR has worked pretty well up until tonight, I think, despite people and the media claiming clearly correct decisions were 'controversial'. However, tonight those in charge did not appear to utilise VAR as it was intended - with corrections being made for a foul in the lead up to a goal, and the awarding of a penalty due to a foul being inside the box, which were not 'clear and obvious'. However, this is why it's being tested, and I expect everyone will learn from tonight to allow improvement of the process and decisions going forward.

It really has not in other leagues it's been tested in. Germany and Portugal for example.

Nixonator · Mar 1, 2018

A1X said:
I remember all this shrill whining and pearl-clutching when the introduced DRS into cricket a decade ago. Sure it wasn't perfect and it took them a few years of tweaking to get it right, but it works and is now an established part of the international game.

Some people despise change in any form. VAR is the future, whether some like it or not. Of course it's not perfect, but nothing ever is when first introduced. It took them a century to get the off-side rule working, and even then it's not faultless.

I guess that's where the different ball game idiom came from.

I just don't understand falsities being thrown around like people complaining about VAR because they "don't like change". It's bullshit. Many changes I've welcomed, the spray for free kicks is irritating as it can consume precious time but at least it prevents dick heads gaining yards on the taker. Goal line tech was long overdue and an overall success without one single incident since it's introduction as far as I know. VAR is an absolute cluster**** in it's practicality alone without getting into any debate on it changing football's enternainment value for the spectator.

Easy 10 · Mar 1, 2018

spence said:
Maybe put it down to teething problems. Var technology for football probably needs a couple of seasons not just a few matches.

Its beyond teething problems. Football wasn't broken. It CERTAINLY doesn't need crap like this to "fix" it. All it is doing is utterly wrecking the spectacle, in some desperate drive to get 100% correct decisions right. It. Does. Not. Fit.

But we're lumbered now. The genie is out of the bottle, there is no going back. Just be prepared for many goal celebrations to be put "on hold", while the ref pushes his finger into his ear.

Yay.

Nixonator · Mar 1, 2018

Easy 10 said:
Its beyond teething problems. Football wasn't broken. It CERTAINLY doesn't need crap like this to "fix" it. All it is doing is utterly wrecking the spectacle, in some desperate drive to get 100% correct decisions right. It. Does. Not. Fit.

But we're lumbered now. The genie is out of the bottle, there is no going back. Just be prepared for many goal celebrations to be put "on hold", while the ref pushes his finger into his ear.

Yay.

Managers haven't helped. Such is the pressure they're under that they're desperate to divert the blame of a loss or poor performance anywhere, and leaving it at the doorstep of "all football's problems are down to a lack of VAR" has been common.

Honestly feel it has just not been thought through especially by the fans who harp on about it solving football's 'problems'. It will be too late when they all realise just how shit it is in practice.

kevo · Mar 1, 2018

GT49er said:
Isn't part of the problem that the authorities have made it all too complicated? Yes, there is obviously an advantage in having a fourth (or fifth or whatever) official watching all the detail that the cameras can supply. But, there should be no referrals or appeals to the VAR - the match should be played as before, with the on-field referee making the decisions. He would be in radio contact with the VAR - but the only involvement of the VAR should be entirely VAR lead - if the VAR sees that the ref has made a real ricket, or missed something serious that was not in his line of sight, then, and only then, the VAR would have a word in the ref's ear.

That's exactly how it *should* work, yes. Unfortunately the idiots who run the game don't realise this.

seagulls4ever · Mar 1, 2018

Nixonator said:
It really has not in other leagues it's been tested in. Germany and Portugal for example.

From what I've read it's been performing OK in other leagues too, getting around 99% of decisions correct. Of course there are some issues which need to be worked out, but that's to be expected given its in the early stages. Of course people will remember the few incorrect decisions rather than the many correct decisions.

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/blog...working-well-in-serie-a-bundesliga-mls-so-far

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42733272

Kalimantan Gull · Mar 1, 2018

A1X said:
I remember all this shrill whining and pearl-clutching when the introduced DRS into cricket a decade ago. Sure it wasn't perfect and it took them a few years of tweaking to get it right, but it works and is now an established part of the international game.

Some people despise change in any form. VAR is the future, whether some like it or not. Of course it's not perfect, but nothing ever is when first introduced. It took them a century to get the off-side rule working, and even then it's not faultless.

But the same problems are still there in cricket. It was brought in to correct howlers, and when there is a howler (far less often than we might have presumed before) it works simply and quickly. But in almost every international game now there is at least one incident where it is not clear, and they take ages winding footage back and forwards - did he nick it before it hit his pads, is part of his foot behind the line, was the catch taken cleanly. It is so often not black and white, and these incidents happen more often than the howlers, and they certainly take more time out of the game. But, at least this is consistent with the pace of play in cricket, and at least decisions go evenly both ways, out /not out, and at least there are 20-40 dismissals in a game so this will affect only a fraction.

In football, the same unclear decisions will keep coming up - is he onside or offside, did he move his hand towards the ball, was there contact in the area - but in contrast to cricket the amount of time spent analysing them is not consistent with the pace of play, decisions are far more likely to rule goals out than rule goals in, and with only 1-3 goals in most games this will have a huge impact on the result.

Whilst we would all love the fourth referee to pipe up now and again and shout - 2 yards offside, or clear deliberate handball in build-up - thats only a fraction of decisions and most of the time we'll be wasting minutes rolling footage back and forward and applying virtual technology to check if someone was 1 inch offside two phases of play earlier. That will never get fun.

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