Ben White

Da Man Clay · Aug 1, 2017

BigGully said:
You are going off piste, my point was how Academys that spend £millions seem unable to create a development environment where a player might not need to go to a League 2 club before he can be considered as first team ready.

No academy, however good, can replicate playing proper professional football in front of paying fans in games that mean something. Every club in the world, however good the academy, send players out in part for that reason. Certain players buckle under that pressure or just can't replicate what they can do in a sterile environment. Can't see any other way to test that. Throwing in a kid at the deep end works occasionally - but the vast majority have had some grounding elsewhere. Even Barcelona, Man Utd etc send players out to get that experience.

GreersElbow · Aug 1, 2017

BigGully said:
You are going off piste, my point was how Academys that spend £millions seem unable to create a development environment where a player might not need to go to a League 2 club before he can be considered as first team ready.

You think an academy can replicate the same variables as that of real, first team experience in a competitive environment.

Superb.

We have a requirement to spend a minimum amount to maintain the highest academy status. I suppose every academy that doesn't produce players immediately capable of first team experience, are absolute failures.

Guess Southampton needs to hire you, because clearly you're on to something that these professionals do, day in day out.

pishhead · Aug 1, 2017

GreersElbow said:
You think an academy can replicate the same variables as that of real, first team experience in a competitive environment.

Superb.

We have a requirement to spend a minimum amount to maintain the highest academy status. I suppose every academy that doesn't produce players immediately capable of first team experience, are absolute failures.

Guess Southampton needs to hire you, because clearly you're on to something that these professionals do, day in day out.

I was going to post along the same lines. The variables are far too numerous to list. The ability to control variables and maintain an elite level of performance is what defines the top 1% of players. Serving your apprenticeship at a lower level is absolutely crucial in aiding development.
It seems like Biggully constantly loves to have a snipe at our youth development policy.

DJ NOBO · Aug 1, 2017

Nice to be dishing these promising but unproven players out , rather than being the recipients. Wasn't so long ago ......

BigGully · Aug 1, 2017

Da Man Clay said:
No academy, however good, can replicate playing proper professional football in front of paying fans in games that mean something. Every club in the world, however good the academy, send players out in part for that reason. Certain players buckle under that pressure or just can't replicate what they can do in a sterile environment. Can't see any other way to test that. Throwing in a kid at the deep end works occasionally - but the vast majority have had some grounding elsewhere. Even Barcelona, Man Utd etc send players out to get that experience.

Its the level that is important, you have Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City etc squirting players out to Championship clubs etc, and we squirt them out to League one at the very best, it isn't the same.

It is an absolute travesty to try to defend multi million pound Academy's as if taking a kid out of first class environments to third class environment and wrap it up as positive development.

I nearly thought as did others that Jordan Maguire drew had a relatively decent loan when he went to Dagenham and Redbridge perhaps Valnarama level was the accepted tipping point, until I watched a televised game, it was absolutely woeful, there wasn't one aspect that I would expect our multi million Academy couldn't possibly replicate, they hardly made a pass to their own team mate, its an absolute myth.

BigGully · Aug 1, 2017

pishhead said:
I was going to post along the same lines. The variables are far too numerous to list. The ability to control variables and maintain an elite level of performance is what defines the top 1% of players. Serving your apprenticeship at a lower level is absolutely crucial in aiding development.
It seems like Biggully constantly loves to have a snipe at our youth development policy.

No no no, its a view on the overall Academy system , not just ours, I happen to be posting in respect of a BHA players loan on the BHA forum so it is hardly surprising that I offer a view on our own Academy.

For the record these modern expensive Academy's are being revalued as we speak, those within it and those that are funding it are not sure if it is delivering the outcomes the EPPP once promised to deliver.

Stop being so defensive.

pishhead · Aug 1, 2017

BigGully said:
No no no, its a view on the overall Academy system , not just ours, I happen to be posting in respect of a BHA players loan on the BHA forum so it is hardly surprising that I offer a view on our own Academy.

For the record these modern expensive Academy's are being revalued as we speak, those within it and those that are funding it are not sure if it is delivering the outcomes the EPPP once promised to deliver.

Stop being so defensive.

How do you explain the success of the underage England sides this summer?

BigGully · Aug 1, 2017

pishhead said:
How do you explain the success of the underage England sides this summer?

I watched it all, some of it was outstanding, but without googling I cannot be sure which ones have been loaned out to League one or less, against the likelihood of those that have figured in their own clubs first team or at least Championship, you tell me.

Its a valid point I would like to know.

pishhead · Aug 1, 2017

I wouldn't know either, my point was more in the direction of you referring to
"For the record these modern expensive Academy's are being revalued as we speak, those within it and those that are funding it are not sure if it is delivering the outcomes the EPPP once promised to deliver"
To an extent I do agree. However it's the system we have and it needs to run its cycle.
You seem clued up on youth development what changes do you hope/envisage to improve the system?

Da Man Clay · Aug 1, 2017

BigGully said:
Its the level that is important, you have Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City etc squirting players out to Championship clubs etc, and we squirt them out to League one at the very best, it isn't the same.

It is an absolute travesty to try to defend multi million pound Academy's as if taking a kid out of first class environments to third class environment and wrap it up as positive development.

I nearly thought as did others that Jordan Maguire drew had a relatively decent loan when he went to Dagenham and Redbridge perhaps Valnarama level was the accepted tipping point, until I watched a televised game, it was absolutely woeful, there wasn't one aspect that I would expect our multi million Academy couldn't possibly replicate, they hardly made a pass to their own team mate, its an absolute myth.

I thought your issue was to start with that we were sending them out at all? It's a bit daft to think a very recent top division club is going to be sending out on loan to top championship clubs. We are a very newly established grade 1 academy. We aren't gong to be sending out on loan at that level yet.

Look at the career of the majority of top level players. Most have had some experience of lower league football - be it on loan or being owned by a lower league club. It's exactly the way most footballers devolpe. Outside of superstars they don't just start at the top.

The way we've dealt with JMD seems pretty decent to me. Started at a really low level and built him up.
He's still very young and before playing at U23 level didn't have a lot of experience. Now playing league 2 after seasons at tier 6 (?) and then conference. Will see how he gets on at league football.

Apologies if I have the wrong poster but I seem to remember you have an issue with the academy due to the way they managed someone you were involved with - but to have a pop at them for dealing with players the way pretty much every other academy in the world does seems an odd line of attack.

casbom · Aug 2, 2017

For me, it shows how far we've come over the last 10 years that we are now sending youngsters out on loan to league clubs. 10 years ago (or even 5 years ago) we were only sending out youngsters to clubs like Bognor, or Burgess Hill (no disrespect to them). So we have moved up in our quality thanks to the Academy. I reckon within 5 years we could be sending them regularly to Championship clubs or clubs abroad.

BigGully · Aug 2, 2017

GreersElbow said:
You think an academy can replicate the same variables as that of real, first team experience in a competitive environment.

Superb.

We have a requirement to spend a minimum amount to maintain the highest academy status. I suppose every academy that doesn't produce players immediately capable of first team experience, are absolute failures.

Guess Southampton needs to hire you, because clearly you're on to something that these professionals do, day in day out.

You are all over the place .................

It was actually Southampton's Executive Director of Football Les Reed that initally made me think slightly differently about young player development, when some years ago he said on The Footballer Footballers Show:

"From a player development point of view," he explained "I don’t understand the logic of investing significant sums of money in resources and facilities and in trying to attract the best possible staff and then sending out your best prospects to somebody else who hasn’t done that." Reed felt that the best way for a player to develop was by staying at Southampton and playing with and against the first team players in training on a daily basis at the club's expensively constructed Staplewood campus. "They have to be accepted with the first team," Reed said. "And once they are, then the only way is up."

With young player loans it depends on why they are being loaned out in the first place and with Ben White, JMD and others we cannot be sure that they are seen by the club as prospective first team players, perhaps they have we cannot be sure, it might be that they in the opinion of our coaches to fall a little short and a loan to a League one or two is an opportunity to find careers outside of BHA, who knows.

I have noted in recent years that generally those that are offered new or extended contracts have usually stayed within our Academy system under the gaze of the coaches and playing regularly for our U23's and not gone out on loan, whilst the majority of those young players recently loaned out to lower levels like Bognor, Worthing and others have been released.

BigGully · Aug 2, 2017

pishhead said:
I was going to post along the same lines. The variables are far too numerous to list. The ability to control variables and maintain an elite level of performance is what defines the top 1% of players. Serving your apprenticeship at a lower level is absolutely crucial in aiding development.
It seems like Biggully constantly loves to have a snipe at our youth development policy.

What are you talking about uncontrollable variables for, that just another word for LUCK ...............

Why do you think they has been a new categorisation of Academys to make clear of which ones should offer superior facilties, qualified staffing levels and development environments, thats the aspiration of the EPPP.

My point isnt necessarily against our Academy, I have stated firstly we cannot be sure how the club see those young players loaned out and the reason for it, so its nearly impossible from where we are standing to really know if a loan might deliver what they hope for.

But I state my point again that it seems illogical to send out a young player away from a first class training environment into a third class training environment and see it as a necessary development component, a first class training environment should be able to replicate a superior version of that third class model.

hans kraay fan club · Aug 2, 2017

BigGully said:
You are all over the place .................

It was actually Southampton's Executive Director of Football Les Reed that initally made me think slightly differently about young player development, when some years ago he said on The Footballer Footballers Show:

"From a player development point of view," he explained "I don’t understand the logic of investing significant sums of money in resources and facilities and in trying to attract the best possible staff and then sending out your best prospects to somebody else who hasn’t done that." Reed felt that the best way for a player to develop was by staying at Southampton and playing with and against the first team players in training on a daily basis at the club's expensively constructed Staplewood campus. "They have to be accepted with the first team," Reed said. "And once they are, then the only way is up."

With young player loans it depends on why they are being loaned out in the first place and with Ben White, JMD and others we cannot be sure that they are seen by the club as prospective first team players, perhaps they have we cannot be sure, it might be that they in the opinion of our coaches to fall a little short and a loan to a League one or two is an opportunity to find careers outside of BHA, who knows.

I have noted in recent years that generally those that are offered new or extended contracts have usually stayed within our Academy system under the gaze of the coaches and playing regularly for our U23's and not gone out on loan, whilst the majority of those young players recently loaned out to lower levels like Bognor, Worthing and others have been released.

Interesting quotes from Les Reed, and given their success who is to question him?

However, for every James Ward-Prowse or Luke Shaw who are kept in house and fast-tracked at Saints, there are PLENTY of other highly rated youngsters for whom they choose the exact path you (and Reed) are claiming is flawed.

If Saints and Reed are so against it, why did Sam Gallagher spend the last two seasons at MK Dons and Blackburn in the Championship? Why did Lloyd Isgrove get shipped out at 19 to Peterborough in L1, then Sheffield Wednesday and then Barnsley? Why did Jack Stephens go out at 19 to Swindon in L1, then Middlesbrough in the Champ, then back to Coventry back in L1? Why did Sam McQueen go to Southend in L1 last season? Why is Harrison Reed now at Norwich?

BigGully · Aug 2, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
Interesting quotes from Les Reed, and given their success who is to question him?

However, for every James Ward-Prowse or Luke Shaw who are kept in house and fast-tracked at Saints, there are PLENTY of other highly rated youngsters for whom they choose the exact path you (and Reed) are claiming is flawed.

If Saints and Reed are so against it, why did Sam Gallagher spend the last two seasons at MK Dons and Blackburn in the Championship? Why did Lloyd Isgrove get shipped out at 19 to Peterborough in L1, then Sheffield Wednesday and then Barnsley? Why did Jack Stephens go out at 19 to Swindon in L1, then Middlesbrough in the Champ, then back to Coventry back in L1? Why did Sam McQueen go to Southend in L1 last season? Why is Harrison Reed now at Norwich?

He has softened his position on loans and I accept that Les Reed isnt the messiah anyway, but it was his initial thoughts that I thought made some sense, especially in light of the massive investment clubs like ours is making.

There is a problem in the PL with too many young professionals and not enough teams, something that perhaps need addressing too.

I cannot comment on Southampton's latest loanees, I suspect we all agree a Championship experience is unique and unreplicable, League One less so, however without knowing whether those loaned players are even considered future Southampton players or maybe a decision already made that they will at sometime need to find a new club then the decision to loan them out becomes less measurable to the overall discussion.

It might be more interesting to see those kept within the club playing with the U23's whilst training with the first team, I suspect thats where their current prospects are just now.

pishhead · Aug 2, 2017

BigGully said:
What are you talking about uncontrollable variables for, that just another word for LUCK ...............

Why do you think they has been a new categorisation of Academys to make clear of which ones should offer superior facilties, qualified staffing levels and development environments, thats the aspiration of the EPPP.

My point isnt necessarily against our Academy, I have stated firstly we cannot be sure how the club see those young players loaned out and the reason for it, so its nearly impossible from where we are standing to really know if a loan might deliver what they hope for.

But I state my point again that it seems illogical to send out a young player away from a first class training environment into a third class training environment and see it as a necessary development component, a first class training environment should be able to replicate a superior version of that third class model.

We seem to be dancing in circles here. All everyone is saying is that going to a lower level to gain experience playing in men's football is massively beneficial for reasons far too numerous to list.

it seems illogical to send out a young player away from a first class training environment into a third class training environment and see it as a necessary development component.

By that rationale players should be able to come straight out of their training centres and straight into the first team.

Pantani · Aug 2, 2017

BigGully said:
I watched it all, some of it was outstanding, but without googling I cannot be sure which ones have been loaned out to League one or less, against the likelihood of those that have figured in their own clubs first team or at least Championship, you tell me.

England U21s:
Jordan Pickford- Darlington, Alfreton, Burton, Carlisle, Bradford, Preston
Mason Holgate- Started at Barnsley so no loan but 20 appearances in League 1
Calum Chambers- Came through at Southampton, never played lower than the Prem
Alfie Mawson- Loaned from Brentford to Maidenhead x 3; Luton, Wycombe and Welling. Given a free transfer to Barnsley then signed by Swansea.
Ben Chilwell- Loan to Huddersfield
James Ward-Prowse- Only ever at Southampton
Nathaniel Chalobah- Watford, Forest, Middlesbrough, Burnley, Reading and Napoli
Will Hughes- Just Derby until recent move to Watford.
Demarai Gray- Came through at Birmingham
Tammy Abraham- Loans to Bristol City and Swansea
Lewis Baker- Wednesday :lolol:

Franchise FC and Vitesse Arnhem

That is as far as I can be bothered to go. It seems to me there are several different approaches, most do go out on loan to lower clubs though. Maybe it is horses for courses? Only Southampton of the Premier League academies and the aforementioned Les Reed seem to keep their players in house.

Maybe the people who coach White know he needs toughening up, so they have sent him loan to somewhere that will do that?

hans kraay fan club · Aug 2, 2017

Pantani said:
Only Southampton of the Premier League academies and the aforementioned Les Reed seem to keep their players in house.

As per post #34, Saints send plenty of players out on loan, too. And despite what BigGully alluded too, only Isgrove (now departed to Barnsley) of those I listed was surplus to requirements. Most went on from those loans to play first team games at Saints.

BigGully · Aug 2, 2017

hans kraay fan club said:
As per post #34, Saints send plenty of players out on loan, too. And despite what BigGully alluded too, only Isgrove (now departed to Barnsley) of those I listed was surplus to requirements. Most went on from those loans to play first team games at Saints.

No no, you not going to get away with that;

Your quoted loanees were:

Sam Gallagher 22 years old: He made his first team appearances for Southampton prior to his loans, none after

Llyod Isgrove 24 years old: He made his one first team appearance for Southampton prior to his loans, none after

Jack Stephens 23 years old: On loan Swindon (10) (37) Middelsbrough (1) Coventry (16) then 17 first team appearances.

Sam Mcqueen 22 years old: On loan Peterborough (4 starts 14 subs) then 13 first appearances.

Harrison Reed 22 years old: He made his first team appearances for Southampton prior to his loan to Norwich.

3 out of those 5 did not go out on loan prior to first team appearances.

Whilst we are at it wouldnt a fairer reflection on how Southampton implement their loan policy for young players would be to look at how current first team squad members that have come through their Academy have got there.

Not including those already mentioned, it seems that Southamptons professional squad consists of 10 Academy products 19-21 years old and NONE of them have gone out on loan.

Matt Targett 21 years: No loans 21 appearances
Alfie Jones 19 years: No loans 0 appearances
James Warde-Prowse 22 years old: No loans 72 Appearances
Armani Little 20 years old: No loans 0 appearances
Jake Flannagan 21 years old: No loans 0 appearances
Joshua Sims 20 yeasr old: No loans 0 appearances
Jake Hesketh 21 years old: No loans 1 appearance
Marcus Barnes 20 Years old: No loans 0 appearances
Callum Slattery 18 years old: No loans 0 appearances
Jake Vokins 17 years old: No loans 0 appearances

Its clear that Southamptons do not use loans as a basis for young player progression, they use it but not as a pathway to first team involvement, later loans seem to be more of a consequence of the clubs view on them as unlikley prospective first team players and not a preferred added development tool to get them there.

hans kraay fan club · Aug 2, 2017

BigGully said:
No no, you not going to get away with that;

Your quoted loanees were:

Sam Gallagher 22 years old: He made his first team appearances for Southampton prior to his loans, none after

Llyod Isgrove 24 years old: He made his one first team appearance for Southampton prior to his loans, none after

Jack Stephens 23 years old: On loan Swindon (10) (37) Middelsbrough (1) Coventry (16) then 17 first team appearances.

Sam Mcqueen 22 years old: On loan Peterborough (4 starts 14 subs) then 13 first appearances.

Harrison Reed 22 years old: He made his first team appearances for Southampton prior to his loan to Norwich.

3 out of those 5 did not go out on loan prior to first team appearances.

Whilst we are at it wouldnt a fairer reflection on how Southampton implement their loan policy for young players would be to look at how current first team squad members that have come through their Academy have got there.

Not including those already mentioned, it seems that Southamptons professional squad consists of 10 Academy products 19-21 years old and NONE of them have gone out on loan.

Matt Targett 21 years: No loans 21 appearances
Alfie Jones 19 years: No loans 0 appearances
James Warde-Prowse 22 years old: No loans 72 Appearances
Armani Little 20 years old: No loans 0 appearances
Jake Flannagan 21 years old: No loans 0 appearances
Joshua Sims 20 yeasr old: No loans 0 appearances
Jake Hesketh 21 years old: No loans 1 appearance
Marcus Barnes 20 Years old: No loans 0 appearances
Callum Slattery 18 years old: No loans 0 appearances
Jake Vokins 17 years old: No loans 0 appearances

Its clear that Southamptons do not use loans as a basis for young player progression, they use it but not as a pathway to first team involvement, later loans seem to be more of a consequence of the clubs view on them as unlikley prospective first team players and not a preferred added development tool to get them there.

Nice try, but eight of those ten you list are MILES further from the Southampton first team than the likes of Reed and McQueen, who HAVE had loans.

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