Bus crash on north street

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jul 6, 2015

edna krabappel said:
I'm not sure you read my question correctly. How would you cater for (say) an unconscious or semi-conscious driver, for example? What measures are you suggesting?

I read your question perfectly. You've got inside information that I'm guessing has not yet been made available to the public. Clever you. Doesn't alter the fact one little bit that that entire road scheme around Churchill Square is a dangerous mess that will cost the lives of pedestrians.

Gwylan · Jul 6, 2015

edna krabappel said:
What traffic calming measures do you think would prevent a collision in a scenario where one driver- hypothetically- was having a medical episode at the time?

edna krabappel · Jul 6, 2015

Tom Hark said:
I read your question perfectly. You've got inside information that I'm guessing has not yet been made available to the public. Clever you. Doesn't alter the fact one little bit that that entire road scheme around Churchill Square is a dangerous mess that will cost the lives of pedestrians.

No, no I haven't. I'm not at work. I'm no more informed than you are.

You called for traffic calming in relation to this incident. I asked you what sort of traffic calming would have any effect in a scenario where a driver lost consciousness (something which could happen on any road at any time).

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it was a speeding driver or an errant pedestrian. I'm merely suggesting that sometimes things happen that no amount of speed humps or traffic islands or restrictions can control. There always seems to be an inclination that Something Must Be Done, following these situations.

When sometimes, there is nothing anybody can do.

StonehamPark · Jul 6, 2015

edna krabappel said:
I would be very surprised indeed if excess speed turned out to be a factor in this particular case.

I don't think there's ever enough space for a bus to get past 20 mph on North Street with all the bus congestion there is already. As you've mentioned.

The most likely (imo) scenarios being; driver fault (including health problems) or faulty breaks/mechanisms or the first bus slamming brakes on due to pedestrian/cyclist/angry bird resulting in the collision.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jul 6, 2015

edna krabappel said:
No, no I haven't. I'm not at work. I'm no more informed than you are.

You called for traffic calming in relation to this incident. I asked you what sort of traffic calming would have any effect in a scenario where a driver lost consciousness (something which could happen on any road at any time).

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it was a speeding driver or an errant pedestrian. I'm merely suggesting that sometimes things happen that no amount of speed humps or traffic islands or restrictions can control. There always seems to be an inclination that Something Must Be Done, following these situations.

When sometimes, there is nothing anybody can do.

Fair enough. Let's see what the investigations show then (tho you seem to be mooting the 'unconscious driver' scenario a bit strongly, whether you're at work or whether you're not).

In the wider scheme of things, something CAN and SHOULD be done - by the council officers who are paid by us to oversee these things - about the junctions around Churchill Square. And around the top of North Road. And around Preston Circus. Because they're all bloody dangerous.

Chicken Runner61 · Jul 6, 2015

SOME of the bus drivers rush down north street and along Western Road way too fast - and SOME even like playing chicken with pedestrians.

Also now that the dopey council have made it difficult if not impossible to drive UP north street delivery vans have to park with the side loading door on the road side. - the buses drive so fast and so close someone will get killed unloading you wait.

It doesn't help with pedestrians stepping in the road, cyclists going way to fast and the lunatic skateboarders that come down there either - Perhaps also if the dopey council hadn't shut off nearly all the East /West Roads and some of the North South routes it would ease the congestion of pedestrians buses cyclists taxis and delivery vans in the area let alone allow cars to drop people off and escape without getting stuck in the gridlocks. No one takes a car into Brighton unless they have to or unless they are going to use the centre car parks and park all day so why not make it better to get in and out and either close the carparks or make them so expensive people have to get buses or lifts in - Oh yeah I forgot they do to make a killing on the parking so they make it all congested to justify they lunacy

Gwylan · Jul 6, 2015

Regardless of the cause of the accident (and none of us know yet), it does draw attention to the amount of buses that travel this route.A look at the photo of the incident shows a number of them backed up and Bombardier B has alluded to how difficult it is to cycle this route. We already know that bus services are seriously disrupted.There are also concerns about the level of pollution in North St, I believe this breaches EU guidelines.

I've long thought that bus services in the city need to be more widespread. The current emphasis on Churchill Square leads to gridlock and is a single point of failure for bus services. I don't see why more buses can't serve Kings Road or Upper North Street/Montpelier Terrace or Old Shoreham Road.

There are approximately 26 buses an hour (at peak times) between the bottom of the Avenue and Churchill Square - that's not necessary. Add in the number that come from London Rd and St James St and you have a recipe for a mess.

I'd like to see some genuine transport planning in this city, but that seems to be dirty word these days

wellquickwoody · Jul 6, 2015

edna krabappel said:
No, no I haven't. I'm not at work. I'm no more informed than you are.

You called for traffic calming in relation to this incident. I asked you what sort of traffic calming would have any effect in a scenario where a driver lost consciousness (something which could happen on any road at any time).

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it was a speeding driver or an errant pedestrian. I'm merely suggesting that sometimes things happen that no amount of speed humps or traffic islands or restrictions can control. There always seems to be an inclination that Something Must Be Done, following these situations.

When sometimes, there is nothing anybody can do.

Does that suggest we have had one of those nearly extinct things, an accident?

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jul 6, 2015

Gwylan said:
Regardless of the cause of the accident (and none of us know yet), it does draw attention to the amount of buses that travel this route.A look at the photo of the incident shows a number of them backed up and Bombardier B has alluded to how difficult it is to cycle this route. We already know that bus services are seriously disrupted.There are also concerns about the level of pollution in North St, I believe this breaches EU guidelines.

I've long thought that bus services in the city need to be more widespread. The current emphasis on Churchill Square leads to gridlock and is a single point of failure for bus services. I don't see why more buses can't serve Kings Road or Upper North Street/Montpelier Terrace or Old Shoreham Road.

There are approximately 26 buses an hour (at peak times) between the bottom of the Avenue and Churchill Square - that's not necessary. Add in the number that come from London Rd and St James St and you have a recipe for a mess.

I'd like to see some genuine transport planning in this city, but that seems to be dirty word these days

I'd like to see buses replaced by modern trams. If they can do it in Croydon they can do it here. Not only would it be far more environmentally-friendly, far cheaper to build than bus/cycle lanes and far more of a fun thing to do, but the demarcation between tram zones and zones for pedestrians, cyclists and other road users would be far clearer. It's a no-brainer for a modern forward-thinking city really.

edna krabappel · Jul 6, 2015

wellquickwoody said:
Does that suggest we have had one of those nearly extinct things, an accident?

Maybe. I honestly don't know any more than you do yet at the moment. It happened in Glasgow last Christmas, didn't it.

Mechanical issues could be another possibility I suppose.

Thunder Bolt · Jul 6, 2015

Tom Hark said:
Fair enough. Let's see what the investigations show then (tho you seem to be mooting the 'unconscious driver' scenario a bit strongly, whether you're at work or whether you're not).

In the wider scheme of things, something CAN and SHOULD be done - by the council officers who are paid by us to oversee these things - about the junctions around Churchill Square. And around the top of North Road. And around Preston Circus. Because they're all bloody dangerous.

The unconscious driver has been hinted at on Nsc by someone whose other half is at the hospital & someone else on the Argus website.
Buses don't go up or down North Street at speed, as there are too many stops & pedestrian crossings to prevent them doing so. I've seen skateboarders going faster than buses on that section.

Man of Harveys · Jul 6, 2015

wellquickwoody said:
Does that suggest we have had one of those nearly extinct things, an accident?

Nonsense - there's clearly never any such thing. Someone has to be BLAMED.

Gwylan · Jul 6, 2015

Tom Hark said:
I'd like to see buses replaced by modern trams. If they can do it in Croydon they can do it here.

Buses haven't replaced trams in Croydon: they have both. They're not a cheap option, there was a proposal to run a tram service in west London about 10 years ago and it was kicked into touch as it proved too pricey to implement (and nearly all the residents were against the idea - the NIMBYs down here would have a field day with that one)

8ace · Jul 6, 2015

Gwylan said:
Regardless of the cause of the accident (and none of us know yet), it does draw attention to the amount of buses that travel this route.A look at the photo of the incident shows a number of them backed up and Bombardier B has alluded to how difficult it is to cycle this route. We already know that bus services are seriously disrupted.There are also concerns about the level of pollution in North St, I believe this breaches EU guidelines.

I've long thought that bus services in the city need to be more widespread. The current emphasis on Churchill Square leads to gridlock and is a single point of failure for bus services. I don't see why more buses can't serve Kings Road or Upper North Street/Montpelier Terrace or Old Shoreham Road.

There are approximately 26 buses an hour (at peak times) between the bottom of the Avenue and Churchill Square - that's not necessary. Add in the number that come from London Rd and St James St and you have a recipe for a mess.

I'd like to see some genuine transport planning in this city, but that seems to be dirty word these days

I can't think of a B&H bus route that doesn't go past the clock tower :shrug:

Hamilton · Jul 6, 2015

mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
im glad NSC has taken it upon themselves to draw conclusions of what caused the incident which may lead to someone being seriously injured.

If only there was some sort of policing team who's job it is to investigate such matters and save us from all the hard work of guessing based on no information at all.

Well, in this time of austerity we should do away with this costly policing team. It was clearly a cyclist and pedestrian, combined with excessive speed and a health issue that caused this. Thanks to NSC we could save Sussex billions in the long-term once this evidence-based and objective policing team is scrapped.

Thunder Bolt · Jul 6, 2015

Gwylan said:
Buses haven't replaced trams in Croydon: they have both. They're not a cheap option, there was a proposal to run a tram service in west London about 10 years ago and it was kicked into touch as it proved too pricey to implement (and nearly all the residents were against the idea - the NIMBYs down here would have a field day with that one)

Sheffield has a tram service which caused chaos for a few years whilst being installed. The locals called the Supertram 'Stupidtram''.

Gwylan · Jul 6, 2015

8ace said:
I can't think of a B&H bus route that doesn't go past the clock tower

23 and 78 don't - I'm sure there are plenty more

Tom Hark Preston Park · Jul 6, 2015

Gwylan said:
Buses haven't replaced trams in Croydon

I guess you meant the opposite maybe? And yes, they have both. However, as one who used to commute to Beckenham from Preston Park by way of East Croydon, the only time anyone ever used the buses was when the tram system crapped out. The bus took at least twice as long and was five times as grim. Oh, and the Croydon trams were included in your Zones 5 & 6 Travelcard, so effectively cost you nothing more than the bus and/or train. Modern trams are the way forward.

MattBackHome · Jul 6, 2015

Who's fault is it then?

8ace · Jul 6, 2015

Gwylan said:
23 and 78 don't - I'm sure there are plenty more

Yes the 23. 78 does.

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