Prevent Donald Trump from making a state visit to the United Kingdom - petition

cunning fergus · Feb 5, 2017

beorhthelm said:
maybe you should look deeper. this isnt just a single judge but many across different states and now a appeal court has upheld that the order is unlawful. its nothing like judges preventing deportation, this is an order that runs contrary to an existing law. the people entering have visas, therefore have been vetted, but this order says they are retrospectivly banned.

as for the views of his electorate, i dare say they will back him and some will rile against the judges. however the judges are not the establishment they were against, it was the politicans and large corporates (both inside the Trump tent) they despise, not the application of the law or their fetted constitution, so he'll be losing support from many. i think he's also playing a very fine line on the praise for Putin. theres a group in US that admire the strength and non-liberal approach of Putin, but at the end of the day he is a Ruskie to them. that support would melt away if Trump was seen to be supporting Putin against US interests, and Putin will sooner or later try to test level of support he has.

Sure, but my point is the legal nuances of this decision will be lost on the vast majority of his support, and maybe others?

On strictly the bare bones of it, this ruling means the US President cannot impose restrictions who comes into the country for the express purpose of restricting terrorists. Regardless or whether the decision is right or wrong, if democratically elected politicians are perceived to be unable to govern because of unelected officials then this will poison the well of many people's faith in democracy. The fact that Trump has been elected is proof that we are already on that trajectory.

The rule of law is fine all the while there is a democratic will to support it.

This is why there is a connection to how many people feel about legal rulings in the UK when criminals or suspected terrorists are not deported. This feeds the narrative of taking back control.

I think this will not end well for those judges and/or this law.

Westdene Wonder · Feb 5, 2017

Westdene Seagull said:
Countries ban citizens of a terrorist, international law breaking state - why should there be outrage ?

Could not agree more, a percentage of those coming from these countries will include people who could well become very dangerous members of the country,so lengthy examinations must be made before
they are permitted to stay.
I consider that those who have lived in the country for some time and have left on business or holiday should be allowed back

Brighton Mod · Feb 5, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
You state you're happy to see a country struggle and then state I'm spiteful. Hmmmmmm.

Germany has helped itself to jobs from Spain, money from Greece and littering immigrants on countries other than itself after merkels unilateral decision last year, where it threatened small states with punitive measures if they did not acquiesce to the demands of merkel. That sort of behaviour is not pleasant, what goes around will enevitably come back, I don't want to see anyone struggle as it always ends up with those at the bottom of the chain that suffer, but merkel and Germany after the immigration debacle needed to be reigned back.

Theatre of Trees · Feb 5, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Sure, but my point is the legal nuances of this decision will be lost on the vast majority of his support, and maybe others?

On strictly the bare bones of it, this ruling means the US President cannot impose restrictions who comes into the country for the express purpose of restricting terrorists. Regardless or whether the decision is right or wrong, if democratically elected politicians are perceived to be unable to govern because of unelected officials then this will poison the well of many people's faith in democracy. The fact that Trump has been elected is proof that we are already on that trajectory.

The rule of law is fine all the while there is a democratic will to support it.

This is why there is a connection to how many people feel about legal rulings in the UK when criminals or suspected terrorists are not deported. This feeds the narrative of taking back control.

I think this will not end well for those judges and/or this law.

Think you may need to read up a little about how the American political system works. To put it simply, the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches are separate entities and each are assigned certain powers within the constitution and each have the capacity to check and block the others. It may produce slow and cumbersome government at times but was designed to prevent demagogues and dictators taking control. This is the system Trump works within.

knocky1 · Feb 5, 2017

cunning fergus said:
Sure, but my point is the legal nuances of this decision will be lost on the vast majority of his support, and maybe others?

On strictly the bare bones of it, this ruling means the US President cannot impose restrictions who comes into the country for the express purpose of restricting terrorists. Regardless or whether the decision is right or wrong, if democratically elected politicians are perceived to be unable to govern because of unelected officials then this will poison the well of many people's faith in democracy. The fact that Trump has been elected is proof that we are already on that trajectory.

The rule of law is fine all the while there is a democratic will to support it.

This is why there is a connection to how many people feel about legal rulings in the UK when criminals or suspected terrorists are not deported. This feeds the narrative of taking back control.

I think this will not end well for those judges and/or this law.

If your thoughts are proved correct America will have moved towards Dictatorship and away from Democracy.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 5, 2017

Brighton Mod said:
just happy with the watching them [Germany] struggle

Brighton Mod said:
I don't want to see anyone struggle

You're either schizophrenic, stupid, and/or have an incredibly short memory? Which is it?

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 5, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
You're either schizophrenic, stupid, and/or have an incredibly short memory? Which is it?

Reminds me of a joke :jester:

roses are red,violets blue,i'm schizophrenic.....And so am I..

Lyndhurst 14 · Feb 5, 2017

Trump ticks all the boxes for being a sociopath (well apart from the one about being highly intelligent) - that makes him dangerous

cunning fergus · Feb 5, 2017

Theatre of Trees said:
Think you may need to read up a little about how the American political system works. To put it simply, the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches are separate entities and each are assigned certain powers within the constitution and each have the capacity to check and block the others. It may produce slow and cumbersome government at times but was designed to prevent demagogues and dictators taking control. This is the system Trump works within.

I don't need to read up on it because it's not my point. I don't doubt that the US constitution allows for this decision, and that is all well and good, my point is how that is perceived by the electorate.

The UK legal system allows judges to overturn decisions made by Home Secretaries and that is why individuals that the UK electorate would want deported are then allowed to stay.

There is a case in the UK currently involving a group of Pakistani men from Rochdale who have British passports. They are convicted peadophiles and are currently appealing against their deportation following the completion of their sentence. The home office want them out, the legal system will no doubt provide for an interpretation that allows for them to stay.

If they do stay I don't think there will be many in the electorate will celebrate that would celebrate the decision as a victory or justice...........and neither do I think the US electorate who supported Trump.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 5, 2017

GoldWithFalmer said:
Reminds me of a joke
roses are red,violets blue,i'm schizophrenic.....And so am I..

Schizophrenia is a very prevalent illness, 6 out of 4 people have it at some point in their life time.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 5, 2017

Lyndhurst 14 said:
Trump ticks all the boxes for being a sociopath (well apart from the one about being highly intelligent) - that makes him dangerous

Quite. He's a text book case.

Herr Tubthumper · Feb 5, 2017

Brighton Mod said:
Germany has helped itself to jobs from Spain, money from Greece and littering immigrants on countries other than itself after merkels unilateral decision last year, where it threatened small states with punitive measures if they did not acquiesce to the demands of merkel. That sort of behaviour is not pleasant, what goes around will enevitably come back, I don't want to see anyone struggle as it always ends up with those at the bottom of the chain that suffer, but merkel and Germany after the immigration debacle needed to be reigned back.

And no doubt their football team are cheats and England are just unlucky eh?

Theatre of Trees · Feb 5, 2017

cunning fergus said:
I don't need to read up on it because it's not my point. I don't doubt that the US constitution allows for this decision, and that is all well and good, my point is how that is perceived by the electorate.

The UK legal system allows judges to overturn decisions made by Home Secretaries and that is why individuals that the UK electorate would want deported are then allowed to stay.

There is a case in the UK currently involving a group of Pakistani men from Rochdale who have British passports. They are convicted peadophiles and are currently appealing against their deportation following the completion of their sentence. The home office want them out, the legal system will no doubt provide for an interpretation that allows for them to stay.

If they do stay I don't think there will be many in the electorate will celebrate that would celebrate the decision as a victory or justice...........and neither do I think the US electorate who supported Trump.

The point is the two systems are different and the two electorates will have some idea as to how their own system works. You cannot look at the American system as if it is the same as the British.

GoldWithFalmer · Feb 5, 2017

Herr Tubthumper said:
Schizophrenia is a very prevalent illness, 6 out of 4 people have it at some point in their life time.

I have a mild form in my family (my brother is diagnosed and on meds for bipolar) i am not as have not gone down that road of looking into it,but i have some episodes myself,it's not quite the same of course,but it's a form of a lack of or perhaps too many chemicals inside the brain as much as anything else,a defined medical illness..

cunning fergus · Feb 5, 2017

knocky1 said:
If your thoughts are proved correct America will have moved towards Dictatorship and away from Democracy.

That's a moot point though isn't it?

For those who voted for Trump this ban is a policy he campaigned for as a candidate.

I doubt there would be many outraged by it, surely if they didn't like it they wouldn't have voted for him?

Further, I would have thought had it been considered illegal at that point then it would have been bought up then..........maybe it was, I don't recall that though?

cunning fergus · Feb 5, 2017

Theatre of Trees said:
The point is the two systems are different and the two electorates will have some idea as to how their own system works. You cannot look at the American system as if it is the same as the British.

On the contrary, the electorates in both countries will not understand why judicial decisions are made that make them less safe.

If that is how the law works then it needs changing...........I suspect that is what Trump will do, and in the UK it will be part of the Brexit negotiation.

Half Time Pies · Feb 5, 2017

knocky1 said:
If your thoughts are proved correct America will have moved towards Dictatorship and away from Democracy.

Well it wouldn't be the first time that a quasi-dictator uses the guise of patriotism and nationalism to slowly move a country towards authoritarianism.

He has already been attacking the free press and now the judiciary, who says this isn't part of a grand plan to control the media and suppress dissent.

It would also explain why he has so much respect for Putin!

Theatre of Trees · Feb 5, 2017

cunning fergus said:
On the contrary, the electorates in both countries will not understand why judicial decisions are made that make them less safe.

If that is how the law works then it needs changing...........I suspect that is what Trump will do, and in the UK it will be part of the Brexit negotiation.

Once more, go and read how the American system works because Trump cannot change the law, which is enshrined within the Constitution, without the help and backing of both Congress (The legislative arm) and the Supreme Court (The judicial arm) as well as the individual states who also hold some rights against the Federal government. I'll also reiterate the British and American legal systems are completely different in how they work with their governments.

cunning fergus · Feb 5, 2017

Theatre of Trees said:
Once more, go and read how the American system works because Trump cannot change the law, which is enshrined within the Constitution, without the help and backing of both Congress (The legislative arm) and the Supreme Court (The judicial arm) as well as the individual states who also hold some rights against the Federal government. I'll also reiterate the British and American legal systems are completely different in how they work with their governments.

I don't need to because politics will win out.

The evidence suggests that the majority of the electorate support Trump's policy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...rt-donald-trumps-immigration-ban-oppose-poll/

If the legal/constitution system prevents a democratically elected representative from delivering policies supported by the will of the electorate then change will happen.

So, change will happen.........whether in the US, UK or wherever.

You could just as well point to how the UK's laws currently are integrated with the EU, however that is going to change, due to the will of the electorate. You seem to have some difficulty understanding this..........it's like you can't see the wood for the theatre of trees!

I'm here all week.......I thank you.

vegster · Feb 5, 2017

Brighton Mod said:
Germany has helped itself to jobs from Spain, money from Greece and littering immigrants on countries other than itself after merkels unilateral decision last year, where it threatened small states with punitive measures if they did not acquiesce to the demands of merkel. That sort of behaviour is not pleasant, what goes around will enevitably come back, I don't want to see anyone struggle as it always ends up with those at the bottom of the chain that suffer, but merkel and Germany after the immigration debacle needed to be reigned back.

They keep their country worryingly clean too, have a good standard of living, and the people are very friendly as well as being better at speaking English than we are at speaking German.

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