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martyn20 · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
A pro-Russian activist with a shell casing and a US-made meal pack that fell from a Ukrainian army APC in an attack on a roadblock on 3 May in Andreevka, Ukraine. Photograph: Scott Olson/Getty

When we gave weapons to the Syrian rebels , not only are those weapons being used across borders in Iraq & Afghanistan, those U.S. made weapons are being used to kill U.S. and British troops.

I don't accept your assertion that the provision of weapons by proxy is only immoral if those weapons are used across boarders.

That was not my assertion, the point was made that Russia is supplying weapons to rebels in Ukraine..........Bit like what the US is doing in most countries That was not correct.
My other point was supplying weapons and support to the Ukrainian government to protect it's own soil is not the same as Russia supplying weapons to rebels inside Ukraine trying to overthrow the government of that country!

martyn20 · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/19/putin-orders-russian-troop-withdrawal-ukrainian-border

Depends who you read. He also urged ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to abandon the referendum which was causing so much controversy.

There are two sides to this story.

So you still believe there were or are not Russian troops massing on the Ukrainian border as you said earlier

Czechmate · Jul 21, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
I cannot be arsed to discuss too deeply but for clarity I think Russia is run by backward arrogant people and has a lot of backward arrogant citizens. Where they involved? I think most likely. Could they do a lot more? Most certainly. Not normal? No, they're not.

That's a bit arrogant ! They are very similar to Ukrainians in traditions , and have their own beliefs , the Russians and Ukrainians have hard very harsh lives over the years so may be a bit backward as you say , perhaps they should be ethnically cleansed .

dingodan · Jul 21, 2014

martyn20 said:
So you still believe there were or are not Russian troops massing on the Ukrainian border as you said earlier

Where is the evidence of that? Col. Warren as quoted in the Washington Times? No offense mate, but military personnel don't make great news sources, no matter which side they are from.

You don't seem to understand that this is a propaganda war, you really do think there are good guys and bad guys.

The E.U. and the U.S. did not like the fact that Ukraine wanted to have closer ties with Russia rather than the E.U. so they stimulated an uprising to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

The U.S. has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments since 1945, many of them democratically elected. It is standard practice.

Russia is not a country I particularly admire, but the harsh reality is that Russia does not have half the resume that the U.S./U.K. does when it comes to interfering in the internal affairs of other nations and overthrowing democratic governments.

Russia is likely quite weary because where there was a stable border with Ukraine, and a buffer between Russia and NATO countries, this is gone. This removal of the "buffer" was entirely a result of this overthrow of the Ukrainian government with the help of NATO counties, it was geopolitically aggressive towards Russia.

martyn20 · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
Where is the evidence of that? Col. Warren as quoted in the Washington Times? No offense mate, but military personnel don't make great news sources, no matter which side they are from.

You don't seem to understand that this is a propaganda war, you really do think there are good guys and bad guys.

The E.U. and the U.S. did not like the fact that Ukraine wanted to have closer ties with Russia rather than the E.U. so they stimulated an uprising to overthrow the Ukrainian government.

The U.S. has tried to overthrow more than 50 governments since 1945, many of them democratically elected. It is standard practice.

Russia is not a country I particularly admire, but the harsh reality is that Russia does not have half the resume that the U.S./U.K. does when it comes to interfering in the internal affairs of other nations and overthrowing democratic governments.

Russia is likely quite weary because where there was a stable border with Ukraine, and a buffer between Russia and NATO countries, this is gone. This removal of the "buffer" was entirely a result of this overthrow of the Ukrainian government with the help of NATO counties, it was geopolitically aggressive towards Russia.

These are satellite pictures released from NATO, most from several months ago, even before this last incident
http://graphics.wsj.com/russian-forces-near-ukraine/

These are some of the same put the most recently are in April
http://mashable.com/2014/04/10/satellite-images-russia-military-ukraine/

beorhthelm · Jul 21, 2014

Czechmate said:
bit like the coup in Kiev then which started all this including build up of UN forces on the Polish border.

i'm sure the UN would be fascinated to know they have forces in Poland.

dingodan said:
Russian divisions are not massing on the border, where did you get that from?

Do you believe the EU/U.S. has had any hand in the uprising and coup in Ukraine?

you clearly missed the news of several month ago when they did this. The Russians didnt even hide it, broadcasting to the world they were engaging in maneuvers and promising to back the Russians ethnic groups in Crimea and Ukraine. what i've found amazing about this whole incident is how apologists for the Russians claim we in the west are being fed propaganda about the situation, when the Russians themselves are often the source of the information. they have not shied away from the fact they see Ukraine as their patch, and EU/NATO influence is not welcome and will be actively discouraged.

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 21, 2014

beorhthelm said:
i'm sure the UN would be fascinated to know they have forces in Poland.

you clearly missed the news of several month ago when they did this. The Russians didnt even hide it, broadcasting to the world they were engaging in maneuvers and promising to back the Russians ethnic groups in Crimea and Ukraine. what i've found amazing about this whole incident is how apologists for the Russians claim we in the west are being fed propaganda about the situation, when the Russians themselves are often the source of the information. they have not shied away from the fact they see Ukraine as their patch, and EU/NATO influence is not welcome and will be actively discouraged.

This.

dingodan · Jul 21, 2014

martyn20 said:
These are satellite pictures released from NATO, most from several months ago, even before this last incident
http://graphics.wsj.com/russian-forces-near-ukraine/

These are some of the same put the most recently are in April
http://mashable.com/2014/04/10/satellite-images-russia-military-ukraine/

So none since May when he ordered them away from the border like I said?

That being said, Russia can put their troops on their border if they want. I'm just pointing out that the suggestions of "aggressive moves" by Russia are not really true, Russia has been trying to broker peace in the region. But that doesn't suit the media's good vs evil narrative.

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
So none since May when he ordered them away from the border like I said?

That being said, Russia can put their troops on their border if they want. I'm just pointing out that the suggestions of "aggressive moves" by Russia are not really true, Russia has been trying to broker peace in the region. But that doesn't suit the media's good vs evil narrative.

Russia, peace brokers? If you make a bit of 'noise' they'll silence you. Is this what you mean?

martyn20 · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
So none since May when he ordered them away from the border like I said?

That being said, Russia can put their troops on their border if they want. I'm just pointing out that the suggestions of "aggressive moves" by Russia are not really true, Russia has been trying to broker peace in the region. But that doesn't suit the media's good vs evil narrative.

View attachment 56465

dingodan · Jul 21, 2014

martyn20 said:
View attachment 56465

Do you realize that the new Ukrainian regime has a Neo Nazi problem?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

Hundreds marched in April, in Lvov 'in honor' of the Ukrainian Waffen SS division.

Do you realize that we don't mind who we put into power as long as we gain influence & advantage over Russia.

From the article:

"Even more disconcerting has been the emergence of phone intercepts between high-ranking U.S. and Ukrainian officials which make it look as if the U.S. was basically, in the words of Princeton's Stephen Cohen, "plotting a coup d'état against the elected president of Ukraine." In other words, the U.S., in addition to providing moral support, may have paved the way for extremists to seize power in Kiev. Such a development would counter the American right's condemnation of Obama for not "engaging" in the world. The real problem is actually the administration's over-engagement in this case -- as in meddling in the affairs of another state and trying to rearrange its domestic political machinery to suit Washington's agenda."

Do you realize that this kind of irresponsible behavior unleashes unintended consequences?

Just yesterday the last Christians were finally driven from Mosul by ISIS, ending 6000 years of history.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/w...rces-last-iraqi-christians-to-flee-mosul.html

What will we be saying about the persecution of Ukrainian Jews in the future? Persecution by those who we helped overthrow a democratically elected government?

Guy Crouchback · Jul 21, 2014

THE current head coach of Melbourne Heart football club, John van’t Schip has suggested a boycott of the 2018 FIFA World Cup in Russia following the downing of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...996404615?nk=6496d88b1140acb6d18c64d77c0ab539

It shouldn't have been given to Russia in the first place--a country where journalists are killed and political opponents of Putin are put into prison.

martyn20 · Jul 21, 2014

282 bodies will be handed over to the Dutch this evening and will be flown there later. The black boxes will be handed over to the Malaysians this evening as well.

drew · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
Do you realize that the new Ukrainian regime has a Neo Nazi problem?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

Hundreds marched in April, in Lvov 'in honor' of the Ukrainian Waffen SS division.

Do you realize that we don't mind who we put into power as long as we gain influence & advantage over Russia.

From the article:

"Even more disconcerting has been the emergence of phone intercepts between high-ranking U.S. and Ukrainian officials which make it look as if the U.S. was basically, in the words of Princeton's Stephen Cohen, "plotting a coup d'état against the elected president of Ukraine." In other words, the U.S., in addition to providing moral support, may have paved the way for extremists to seize power in Kiev. Such a development would counter the American right's condemnation of Obama for not "engaging" in the world. The real problem is actually the administration's over-engagement in this case -- as in meddling in the affairs of another state and trying to rearrange its domestic political machinery to suit Washington's agenda."

Do you realize that this kind of irresponsible behavior unleashes unintended consequences?

Just yesterday the last Christians were finally driven from Mosul by ISIS, ending 6000 years of history.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/w...rces-last-iraqi-christians-to-flee-mosul.html

What will we be saying about the persecution of Ukrainian Jews in the future? Persecution by those who we helped overthrow a democratically elected government?

You are truly one of NSC's sadder cases.

The Antikythera Mechanism · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
Just yesterday the last Christians were finally driven from Mosul by ISIS, ending 6000 years of history.

Wow, I never realised baby Santa was born in 4000BC :lolol:

dingodan · Jul 21, 2014

The Antikythera Mechanism said:
Wow, I never realised baby Santa was born in 4000BC

The Christians there were originally Assyrians who converted to Christianity 2000 years ago, but had lived in Mosul for 4000 years before that.

drew · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
The Christians there were originally Assyrians who converted to Christianity 2000 years ago, but had lived in Mosul for 4000 years before that.

But the point remains, they weren't Christians before Jesus apparently surfaced!

sparkie · Jul 21, 2014

Czechmate said:
bit like the coup in Kiev then which started all this including build up of UN forces on the Polish border.

Not really.

This all started when one student put a post on facebook calling for a protest against Yanukovich not signing the EU association deal he had negotiated.

A few hundred turned up, and instead of just letting it be and eventually fizzle out, Yanukovich made his first mistake by implementing new anti-protest laws, and deploying his Berkut units.

The new laws caused outrage, and many more came out to protest. Yanukovich could still have de-escalated the situation but instead he ordered his Berkut to open fire on his own citizens. Heaven' s Hundred lost their lives, 10s of thousands then marched on Kyiv as a result, and Yanukovich fled.

dingodan · Jul 21, 2014

sparkie said:
Not really.

This all started when one student put a post on facebook calling for a protest against Yanukovich not signing the EU association deal he had negotiated.

A few hundred turned up, and instead of just letting it be and eventually fizzle out, Yanukovich made his first mistake by implementing new anti-protest laws, and deploying his Berkut units.

The new laws caused outrage, and many more came out to protest. Yanukovich could still have de-escalated the situation but instead he ordered his Berkut to open fire on his own citizens. Heaven' s Hundred lost their lives, 10s of thousands then marched on Kyiv as a result, and Yanukovich fled.

"Even more disconcerting has been the emergence of phone intercepts between high-ranking U.S. and Ukrainian officials which make it look as if the U.S. was basically, in the words of Princeton's Stephen Cohen, "plotting a coup d'état against the elected president of Ukraine."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

sparkie · Jul 21, 2014

dingodan said:
"Even more disconcerting has been the emergence of phone intercepts between high-ranking U.S. and Ukrainian officials which make it look as if the U.S. was basically, in the words of Princeton's Stephen Cohen, "plotting a coup d'état against the elected president of Ukraine."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-hughes/the-neo-nazi-question-in_b_4938747.html

That link is just putin's propaganda.
I trust friends and family from Ukraine, none of whom are 'fascists' nor who know of any.

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