[Politics] Brexit

WATFORD zero · Nov 20, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Yes I do claim Brexit is better than remianing - I don't believe being part of the eventual United States of Europe would be good for us. I've never said we would be better off finincially though ..... and we certainly won't be in the immediate future.

So you voted Brexit because you think there is a chance of something happening in the future, although there is no evidence for it, that if it did, you wouldn't be happy with. (And you're prepared to take the negative economic hit that you accept will come with it even though you have no idea of the magnitude of it).

I have to say that I don't think it's possible for me to argue against your reasoning there :wink:

Westdene Seagull · Nov 20, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
So you voted Brexit because you think there is a chance of something happening in the future, although there is no evidence for it, that if it did, you wouldn't like.

I have to say that I don't think it's possible for me to argue against your reasoning there

The stated aim of the EU is ever closer political and financial union - it's well published if you want to look. So the EU already has a currency and a bank - hindering Eurozone members from making their own independent financial decisions ( ask Greece and Italy ). So what would YOU suggest the phrase 'ever closer political and financial union' means if it isn't a United States of Europe. Ted Heath admitted that was and always has been the plan.

Brexiteers were sneered at during the campaign for suggesting an EU Army was on the cards ...... and now we have Macron and Merkel suggesting that should be the direction of travel ..... less than two years later.

Pretty pink fairy · Nov 20, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
So you voted Brexit because you think there is a chance of something happening in the future, although there is no evidence for it, that if it did, you wouldn't be happy with.

I have to say that I don't think it's possible for me to argue against your reasoning there

a bit like your evidence then , you keep making out time and time again that the UK will forever be a third world country on the world stage as if it will slip back to the dark ages :lolol:

bring out the ration books and more home growing of vegetables in your back garden, cut back on public transport and bring back horse and carriage

regards
DR

pastafarian · Nov 20, 2018

Baldseagull said:
If the facts of joining were all known and fully understood by the voters the first time around, if the people that voted to rejoin were actually still alive to see it and it wasn't forcing a majority of the living population into a situation they didn't want, if the campaigning on both sides was fair and honest, if all British citizens affected by the result had a vote, and if there was more than a slim majority, then I think just one referendum would do.

I believe you have stated you would be happy to ask the people deal or no deal, just not liking a remain option on the paper. So you recognise that this deal may not represent what people thought they were getting, and that some would prefer no deal, but want to deny the option of remaining, even though that might be a majority wish, and you say I am undemocratic.

What a surprise, when your side wins only one referendum is needed.
The Remain/Leave question was answered on 23rd june, you dont need to ask again before we have left.

beorhthelm · Nov 20, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
So you voted Brexit because you think there is a chance of something happening in the future, although there is no evidence for it, that if it did, you wouldn't be happy with. (And you're prepared to take the negative economic hit that you accept will come with it even though you have no idea of the magnitude of it).

I have to say that I don't think it's possible for me to argue against your reasoning there

seriously, no evidence? senior leader of nations and EU itself have spoken about common foreign and defence policies, army and police forces on several occassion in the past couple of years. as remainers we should shirley know and accept this future, not pretend its not going to happen.

pastafarian · Nov 20, 2018

Simster said:
What about a bus big enough that said: "we could have closed our borders to EU migrants you know, but your useless government just chose not to"

We have never been able to close our borders to EU migrants whilst being members, and why would we want to close them out anyway. Even countries under transitional phases like Romania and Bulgaria before full free movement kicks in gain visa free travel at the basic level and have access to work permits for longer term arrangements. What would be good at the border is to manage migration not close it, and being allowed to control entry for those EU coming here to live and work in an equal and non discriminatory way with non EU migrants, with permits to enter before coming here, not inadequate and vague checks months after entry has been gained by waving an I.D. card at the border, and quotas too should we desire them on specific tier groups. The only way of taking back permanent control of our borders in this way is to leave the EU.

pastafarian · Nov 20, 2018

Blue Valkyrie said:
Anyone booking now best read the small print in their travel insurance in case we leave with *no deal* ( no worries if DisMay's deal goes through, of course ).

It'll be expensive to get an emergency flight to Ireland, cross the land border and then get back home.

You can come home that way if you want, i`ll probably just use the same airline that took me out.

Thunder Bolt · Nov 20, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
The stated aim of the EU is ever closer political and financial union - it's well published if you want to look. So the EU already has a currency and a bank - hindering Eurozone members from making their own independent financial decisions ( ask Greece and Italy ). So what would YOU suggest the phrase 'ever closer political and financial union' means if it isn't a United States of Europe. Ted Heath admitted that was and always has been the plan.

Brexiteers were sneered at during the campaign for suggesting an EU Army was on the cards ...... and now we have Macron and Merkel suggesting that should be the direction of travel ..... less than two years later.

A suggestion that we could veto just like the euro.

Tom Hark Preston Park · Nov 20, 2018

Unbelievable that many of these Tory wankers are more interested in their intra-party leadership squabbles than in focussing on the Brexit issue that hugely affects every single person in the UK irrespective of who they vote for. Beneath contempt. These people are collectively unfit to govern.

Blue Valkyrie · Nov 20, 2018

pastafarian said:
You can come home that way if you want, i`ll probably just use the same airline that took me out.

I wouldn't book in the first place until *no deal* is ruled out ( or at least kicked down the road until the end of a transition period ). A holiday in Ireland would be a fine alternative.

Westdene Seagull · Nov 20, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
A suggestion that we could veto just like the euro.

Errrr ...... not necessaily ...... what if the EU put forward an EU Army based on a simple majority vote or a qualified majority ? Our vetos are in some specific areas - admittedly 'security' is mentioned but there doesn't appear to be much detail out there to suggest exactly what this means.

EDIT - also, if we keep vetoing the elements that achieve an ever closer EU both politically and financially is begs the question why remain part of the club ? Equally why would the EU want us to be ?

WATFORD zero · Nov 20, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
The stated aim of the EU is ever closer political and financial union - it's well published if you want to look. So the EU already has a currency and a bank - hindering Eurozone members from making their own independent financial decisions ( ask Greece and Italy ). So what would YOU suggest the phrase 'ever closer political and financial union' means if it isn't a United States of Europe. Ted Heath admitted that was and always has been the plan.

Brexiteers were sneered at during the campaign for suggesting an EU Army was on the cards ...... and now we have Macron and Merkel suggesting that should be the direction of travel ..... less than two years later.

That's why we've negotiated exceptions and the vetoes over the last 40 years.

Two Professors · Nov 20, 2018

Blue Valkyrie said:
Anyone booking now best read the small print in their travel insurance in case we leave with *no deal* ( no worries if DisMay's deal goes through, of course ).

It'll be expensive to get an emergency flight to Ireland, cross the land border and then get back home.

Why would I need to get a flight from Turkey to Ireland,when I can just fly straight back to Birmingham?

Thunder Bolt · Nov 20, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Errrr ...... not necessaily ...... what if the EU put forward an EU Army based on a simple majority vote or a qualified majority ? Our vetos are in some specific areas - admittedly 'security' is mentioned but there doesn't appear to be much detail out there to suggest exactly what this means.

At the moment we have 73 seats in the European Parliament out of 750, which is a fair proportion out of the 28 countries. We have a lot of input into the decisions.
All that is being thrown away.

Brexiteers seem to think that whatever Brussels says is law and we have to obey which isn't true. For instance VAT is European law but set at 15%, but that is a minimum. The UK sets it at 20%.

Edit to answer your addition. Why would they want us to be? Because frictionless trade via the single market, and customs union make everything easier. Freedom of movement is good for us.

Nobody said the EU was perfect but neither is our Parliament.

pb21 · Nov 20, 2018

Is there anyone who actually thinks this withdrawal deal is good?

Two Professors · Nov 20, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
At the moment we have 73 seats in the European Parliament out of 750, which is a fair proportion out of the 28 countries. We have a lot of input into the decisions.
All that is being thrown away.

Brexiteers seem to think that whatever Brussels says is law and we have to obey which isn't true. For instance VAT is European law but set at 15%, but that is a minimum. The UK sets it at 20%.

Well,when we have left,there will be plenty of room for all the new MEP's from Japan.

Baldseagull · Nov 20, 2018

pastafarian said:
What a surprise, when your side wins only one referendum is needed.
The Remain/Leave question was answered on 23rd june, you dont need to ask again before we have left.

You didn't notice the caveats then that made up the majority of my comment, and just saw "one referendum would do"?

If Remain had won and it transpired that a massive donor to the campaign looked like he may have been using foreign money and acting on behalf of a foreign power, or that the demographic was such that within 3 years the Leave voters outnumbered the Remain voters, or that bullshit was created and targeted using illegal data harvested from Facebook, as much as I would not want it, it would be hard to argue that we should not do it again fairly soon.
There would be less of a time pressure in the reverse outcome, and we could wait for a general election to see if a party standing on a referendum promise would win, without the situation becoming worse.
If we could rejoin on the same terms we have now, I might be willing to leave and wait till a general election to see if a party standing on rejoining could win, but as you know, the terms would be worse, I believe we will rejoin in the future despite this though. I am trying to preserve the excellent terms we have now, and avoid the disruption and stunting of the UK.

Two Professors · Nov 20, 2018

What a bunch of clowns Labour are.They could have defeated the Government with the DUP vote,but not enough of them bothered turning up (including Jezza,but he did have a note from his carer).

pastafarian · Nov 20, 2018

Blue Valkyrie said:
I wouldn't book in the first place until *no deal* is ruled out ( or at least kicked down the road until the end of a transition period ). A holiday in Ireland would be a fine alternative.

I hope you lot keep this up so leavers can continue to snag all the cheapest flights first

Baldseagull · Nov 20, 2018

pastafarian said:
We have never been able to close our borders to EU migrants whilst being members, and why would we want to close them out anyway. Even countries under transitional phases like Romania and Bulgaria before full free movement kicks in gain visa free travel at the basic level and have access to work permits for longer term arrangements. What would be good at the border is to manage migration not close it, and being allowed to control entry for those EU coming here to live and work in an equal and non discriminatory way with non EU migrants, with permits to enter before coming here, not inadequate and vague checks months after entry has been gained by waving an I.D. card at the border, and quotas too should we desire them on specific tier groups. The only way of taking back permanent control of our borders in this way is to leave the EU.

Don't bank on it being permanent, it will get added back in to our relationship at some point.

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[Politics] Brexit

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