Barber In or Out?

Guy Fawkes · Dec 14, 2014

Giraffe said:
I was wondering how long it would take GF. Club employee post again.

Far from it

Just someone who can see the club for what it is rather than being deluded about what i expect the club to be and getting angry when it isn't

I am certainly not one to try to tear down everything that has been built up at the club because a few fans don't feel as important to the club as they used to and use this to beat the club with or as someone who has a very anti agenda based on hearsay and rumour and not the truth because they simply chose not to believe it because it a) came from the club and b) doesn't fit their agenda

There is a saying that there is no smoke without fire but as there isn't any, some fans have decided to take it upon themselves to start the fire (based on made up nonsense) and then point it out to other fans in an effort to pursuede them to join their cause rather than any real problmes at the club.

Should i be acting without thought and throwing my toys out of my pram just because i am unhappy with how our season is going on the pitch and demand everyone be sacked? conveniently ignoring the efforts of the club to address this (like bringing in Darren Bent) and should i be questioning the guy who has supposedly pumped in over £200m into the club and wondering what his agenda is, assuming it's to destroy the club because we are struggling after a single transfer window with no time to address this because its closed until January.

I was involved with the protests and campaigns at the Goldstone, i was a regular at Gillingham and so on, but unlike some, i don't think i am owed something for my actions during those dark days or for buying a matchday ticket or ST now beyond watching the team i have always supported my whole life. I don't think i am more important than any other fan, whether new or old but i do question some of the extreme anti views that have grown in recent years and not just since the summer.

Spun Cuppa · Dec 14, 2014

Seasidesage said:
2/3rds of that Management team got us in the play offs last season, what's changed? Hmmm...

Our league position?

Guy Fawkes · Dec 14, 2014

Cloughie said:
I concur that Barber is diligently doing his job, but think you're missing the point many people are trying to make. The club is not identifying with the majority of its fans in a manner that befits the history and traditions of the club. It's as though they've gone from 0-100mph in the blink of an eye. Everyone knows that in order to compete with the "big boys" a fair bit of change is needed. But it really did go from attempting to be a identifiable community club to a corporate juggernaut in the space of a year. I can empathise with people feeling more and more disenfranchised with the changes as it's becoming clearer and clearer that money is the bottom line. This is what people are taking exception too. Particularly the ones who fought to keep this club alive.

The fans make the club but we seem to have a high level of apathy and expect the club to do it all for us, we can generate an atmosphere ourselves but look for excuses, we can do stuff to personalise it but can't be bothered or criticise the fans that try to do this (like the NSK)

The club have been listening and trying to do things for the fans to improve their matchday experience, from stocking Harveys and other beers rather than the cheap / most profitable option (like selling Carlsberg or Fosters bottles rather than draught beer)

They have responded with changes when people want it like the outside area for fans to mingle before a game and have a beer, to things like introducing chips.

Of course the club is going to cmmunicate with anyone that may be interested in the Albion on whatever capacity but not all of the clubs commucations are aimed soley at the fans but people are reacting to anything the club puts out and if it isn't specific to their expectations they are over reacting to it rather than seeing it for what it really is. Its the fans that are stuck in the Withdean mentality, and haven't moved with the times. They seem to want us to be a big club and successful but don't want anything that has to go along with it and is needed to try to achieve it.

They are the ones who need to be questioning their thoughts about the club and its activities rather than blaming the club for moving onto bigger things.

Guy Fawkes · Dec 14, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
Ultimately I guess it does as TB owns the club and employs Barber. But as I understand it there is a formal delegation of responsibilities to the CEO so you can argue the buck does stop with Barber as Bloom has handed over certain areas of the club to him to manage and operate.

Bloom must be happy with how it is being run otherwise he would have changed how Barber was running the club wouldn't he.

If someone managing his other interests wasn't performing in a way he'd expect don't you think he would remove them so why would it be any different because it is a football club?

Dick Knights Mumm · Dec 14, 2014

You must be on treble time now GF!

*joke*

Giraffe · Dec 14, 2014

Guy Fawkes said:
Far from it

Just someone who can see the club for what it is rather than being deluded about what i expect the club to be and getting angry when it isn't

I am certainly not one to try to tear down everything that has been built up at the club because a few fans don't feel as important to the club as they used to and use this to beat the club with or as someone who has a very anti agenda based on hearsay and rumour and not the truth because they simply chose not to believe it because it a) came from the club and b) doesn't fit their agenda

There is a saying that there is no smoke without fire but as there isn't any, some fans have decided to take it upon themselves to start the fire (based on made up nonsense) and then point it out to other fans in an effort to pursuede them to join their cause rather than any real problmes at the club.

Should i be acting without thought and throwing my toys out of my pram just because i am unhappy with how our season is going on the pitch and demand everyone be sacked? conveniently ignoring the efforts of the club to address this (like bringing in Darren Bent) and should i be questioning the guy who has supposedly pumped in over £200m into the club and wondering what his agenda is, assuming it's to destroy the club because we are struggling after a single transfer window with no time to address this because its closed until January.

I was involved with the protests and campaigns at the Goldstone, i was a regular at Gillingham and so on, but unlike some, i don't think i am owed something for my actions during those dark days or for buying a matchday ticket or ST now beyond watching the team i have always supported my whole life. I don't think i am more important than any other fan, whether new or old but i do question some of the extreme anti views that have grown in recent years and not just since the summer.

You've certainly taken lessons on how to write something ten times longer than is needed.

Guy Fawkes · Dec 14, 2014

attila said:
Barber has a clever tactic. He spends an awful lot of time sending quite detailed emails to individual fans, which makes him seem hands-on and in tune with fans' concerns. But all he ever does is set out the club's position: from everything I have heard there is never any inkling of a suggestion that he will change tack if we don't like something. It is the 'individual fans' which is the key here: keep individuals happy by showing them personal attention, without any intention of actually changing key areas of operation in line with supporter wishes, and in that way nipping dissent in the bud before fans start uniting in protest. This 'personal' approach has impressed me in the past, as I am sure it has many of you, but in my opinion it is a smokescreen which disguises a heavy handed and top down approach - the programme notes appear to back up that analysis.
It is precisely for that reason that I posed the question about the reformation of BISA or something similar. I think Barber should stay, because in the modern corporate set up we will always have someone like that in charge and in many ways he is better than most would be: a likeable and personable individual who certainly knows and cares a lot about football. But rather than allowing him to deal with us as atomised individuals he should be approached by an organised and determined fans' group with specific questions about areas which need changing.

Firstly do you expect a club employee or that of any other club or someone working high up in any business anywhere to publicly come out and undermine other staff members just because its what a few fans want to hear because it backs up their own personal belief.

and secondly, re: 'determined fans' group with specific questions about areas which need changing' - you are asuming that all fans are in agreement about these things that the group would deem need changing but in virtually every case fans will not agree and some will be more than happy with certain areas and how they operate. How do you seperate out those with a personal agenda / vendetta from those who have geniune concerns and what happens when they are given a truthful answer but are unwilling to accept it because it doesn't fit in with what they feel?

This all comes across as a bit like bitterness from people who used to be close to the club and were in the know but are now no longer closely involved and have been asked to be normal fans again. They are unhappy because they arn't seen as important anymore to the running of the club and therefore also feel that there must be something to hide if they can't be involved anymore and don't want to accept that the Albion is no longer a cottage industry on the verge of bankruptcy under the previous regime despite the fans involvement and now being financed by someone who can afford it and has invested heavily in the club for the benefit of the club long term and has a more secure future than we ever did at the Withdean, fans involvement or not.

Spun Cuppa · Dec 14, 2014

The thing is GF, you probably think the average BHA fan doesn't know the difference between reactivity and retroactivity. But you would be wrong...

Herr Tubthumper · Dec 14, 2014

Guy Fawkes said:
Bloom must be happy with how it is being run otherwise he would have changed how Barber was running the club wouldn't he.

If someone managing his other interests wasn't performing in a way he'd expect don't you think he would remove them so why would it be any different because it is a football club?

I was responding to a post about where the buck stops. In some areas, as highlighted earlier, it will stop with Barber
because he is the CEO and Tony will have formally deligated these areas. This is all. I was not questioning Tony's delight or otherwise with Barbers progress. I am sure Bloom is happy.

Lincoln Imp · Dec 14, 2014

attila said:
WCP, I voted 'Barber in' and praised him in some areas. I think that approached in the right way (within the constraints of modern football) he has the intelligence and personality to be a very good and respected CEO. I hope I have explained my position clearly: in my opinion there needs to be over the table dialogue between an organised fans' group and the club heirarchy, not a two pronged approach of endless individual emails to fans and a lecture in the programme as though we are being given a party line

You criticise Paul Barber for his unbending top-down approach and in the past I believe you have said you loathe everything he stands for. But then you say he should stay because he will be no worse and possibly better than anyone who might replace him. On the impressions many people have had so far, the only person who in the club who might replace him, Paul Beirne, looks a more humane and community-minded individual than the corporate Mr Barber. It's all down to how the chairman sees the club developing, and so far that's not too encouraging.

El Presidente · Dec 14, 2014

Spun Cuppa said:
The fact we have these discussions constantly just points to a lack of transparency employed by the club, shirley?

Instead of PB writing platitudes in the programme, how about he tells us his, DB's and SH's actual responsibilities and roles in the recruitment and decision making processes at the club, and TB's role in all this? It wouldn't give any competitors any advantage, and would end about 80% of the speculation on here...

Or is it just another directive from the secretive TB that this doesn't happen?

But all the roles have been discussed in detail at fans forums and The Albion Roar.

Cloughie · Dec 14, 2014

attila said:
Keep Barber, bin Burke, get in a manager who selects his own players.

Guy Fawkes said:
The fans make the club but we seem to have a high level of apathy and expect the club to do it all for us, we can generate an atmosphere ourselves but look for excuses, we can do stuff to personalise it but can't be bothered or criticise the fans that try to do this (like the NSK)

The club have been listening and trying to do things for the fans to improve their matchday experience, from stocking Harveys and other beers rather than the cheap / most profitable option (like selling Carlsberg or Fosters bottles rather than draught beer)

They have responded with changes when people want it like the outside area for fans to mingle before a game and have a beer, to things like introducing chips.

Of course the club is going to cmmunicate with anyone that may be interested in the Albion on whatever capacity but not all of the clubs commucations are aimed soley at the fans but people are reacting to anything the club puts out and if it isn't specific to their expectations they are over reacting to it rather than seeing it for what it really is. Its the fans that are stuck in the Withdean mentality, and haven't moved with the times. They seem to want us to be a big club and successful but don't want anything that has to go along with it and is needed to try to achieve it.

They are the ones who need to be questioning their thoughts about the club and its activities rather than blaming the club for moving onto bigger things.

Ultimately The club line in the summer was "Wait until we've completed our work in the transfer window because we'll have a competitive team to play in the championship". Everything pre and early season was qualified with that statement and the fact of the matter is that the club failed miserably this summer. People feel let down, lied to and a great deal of mistrust has emanated from this. This is why such antipathy has arisen over that past two months. It feels as though all power has been taken away from the people who care about this club most and put into the hands of people who are as it stands, are damaging it (or at least appearing to). Don't forget that the fans aren't privvy to the day-to-day running of the club. They don't see the excellent work being done at Lancing or at corporate level. The only yardstick with which they can measure the Club is generally the first teams performances which have been grossly unacceptable.

Whether you like it or not, all the business spiel prattled out by the club this summer has inadvertently caused this frustration and is now the metaphorical stick used by the fans to beat the club with. It's inevitable that those at the club with a semblance of a public face have to deal the brunt of said frustration too. That's part of their job. To call it an overreaction is a matter of opinion but I'd suggest that if this season ends in relegation then the criticisms would have been more than justified.

FWIW I, like you, feel that scapegoating individuals for what was patently a multitude of errors would be entirely counterproductive. For example, any new scouting department challenged with identifying players this close to January would have to be cutting corners at best. But to infer that supporters shouldn't be voicing their displeasure at these mistakes is madness. They have every right to know what went wrong and why it happened. I'd be dismayed if they weren't annoyed. The mistakes are so obvious too - like signing Baldock to replace Ulloa. The club already made that mistake when they brought CMS in. Those two are very alike and 100% unsuited to our style and system. Why are these reoccurring themes?

Hotchilidog · Dec 14, 2014

In. All this club has lost its soul stuff is precious crap as far as I'm concerned. Barber seems to be the only person actually doing their job at the club.

Hyppia and Burke on the other hand can do one.

Dick Knights Mumm · Dec 14, 2014

Cloughie - no-one was lied to. Hyypia can't set up a team.

El Presidente · Dec 14, 2014

Giraffe said:
A salary of £480k does not suggest a low grade CEO role. It suggests a near total power and control of the organisation.

I know CEO's who are paid half of that for companies much larger than BHAFC

He is therefore either overpaid or has a typical CEO remit, the control of the company. Shareholders will still make some of the key decisions, but he is still running the company, and he is accountable to the shareholders for any under performance.

There's only one shareholder in effect though as TB owns 92% of the club, and is also owed £90 million in loans.

Guinness Boy · Dec 14, 2014

Giraffe said:
A salary of £480k does not suggest a low grade CEO role. It suggests a near total power and control of the organisation.

I know CEO's who are paid half of that for companies much larger than BHAFC

He is therefore either overpaid or has a typical CEO remit, the control of the company. Shareholders will still make some of the key decisions, but he is still running the company, and he is accountable to the shareholders for any under performance.

El Presidente said:
There's only one shareholder in effect though as TB owns 92% of the club, and is also owed £90 million in loans.

Hmmmm. "No one person will ever control the club again". OK , so I'm paraphrasing but we ALL know what I'm referring to, right?

El Pres, I'm surprised you're defending that point. It's absolutely indefensible. [MENTION=3734]Giraffe[/MENTION] is spot on. I have a very good friend who is an ex stockbroker and now works as a CFO for a content transformation company. He gets less than Barber (but way more than me) and has to be constantly available in three timezones and do day long meetings all over the globe with massive jetlag. If Paul Barber is here to look after the spreadsheets he should be getting £48k a year, not £480k. We could spend some of the difference paying off the contracts of all the central midfielders who currently spend matchday in the gym.

Cloughie · Dec 14, 2014

Dick Knights Mumm said:
Cloughie - no-one was lied to. Hyypia can't set up a team.

I said people felt lied to. In reality they were let down.

Dick Knights Mumm · Dec 14, 2014

Cloughie said:
I said people felt lied to. In reality they were let down.

Fair enough. But it was ridiculous to feel that. I doubt anyone I know felt lied to.

Bozza · Dec 14, 2014

Guinness Boy said:
Hmmmm. "No one person will ever control the club again". OK , so I'm paraphrasing but we ALL know what I'm referring to, right?

El Pres, I'm surprised you're defending that point. It's absolutely indefensible. @Giraffe is spot on. I have a very good friend who is an ex stockbroker and now works as a CFO for a content transformation company. He gets less than Barber (but way more than me) and has to be constantly available in three timezones and do day long meetings all over the globe with massive jetlag. If Paul Barber is here to look after the spreadsheets he should be getting £48k a year, not £480k. We could spend some of the difference paying off the contracts of all the central midfielders who currently spend matchday in the gym.

So your beef is with Tony Bloom for paying PB more than he's worth (or more than you think he's worth)?

If my employer wanted to pay me 2, 3, 4, 5 or 10 times my market worth, I'd take the money. Wouldn't you?

Cloughie · Dec 14, 2014

Dick Knights Mumm said:
Fair enough. But it was ridiculous to feel that. I doubt anyone I know felt lied to.

A lot of people had faith that the club would sign adequate replacements this summer (as they said that they would). Truth is, they just couldn't get them over the line. I'd just love to know why that was. Relying on loans just shows how poorly managed it was this summer.

I'd like to clarify I don't see the value in blaming Burke, Barber or Bloom. But I understnd why some will.

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