The January Transfer Window

GT49er · Dec 22, 2016

Surrey_Albion said:
Price of 1m agreed for a 3 year deal,won't sign until January but deal agreed

Good move by Birmingham. Shame, really - I wanted them to crash and burn; not because I hate Zola (I don't) or because I have any dislike for Birmingham City FC (I don't) - but I'd love some ar8ehole foreign owners who try and just make a football club their own personal toy to absolutely fail and lose all their money.

redoubtable seagull · Dec 22, 2016

Guinness Boy said:
I feel a certain someone has derailed the thread but it does illustrate perfectly how some people don't understand that football is a team game, and that the only activity to be expected in January is anything that will improve and evolve the WHOLE unit.

Who scores the goals is irrelevant so long as the team do. It's something that drives me mental when I'm coaching my son's team. We'll spend ages working on training drills or games to improve their teamwork and passing and then the parents will spend all Sunday yelling at their son not to pass to anyone else so they can score the goal. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how the modern game works.

Can I add - parents bragging about giving their kid £5 for each goal scored used to get on my nerves. Usually, parents who know nothing and their kid was pretty poor.

spanish flair · Dec 22, 2016

GT49er said:
Good move by Birmingham. Shame, really - I wanted them to crash and burn; not because I hate Zola (I don't) or because I have any dislike for Birmingham City FC (I don't) - but I'd love some ar8ehole foreign owners who try and just make a football club their own personal toy to absolutely fail and lose all their money.

Especially the American one's who don't know anything about football and purchased Crystal instead of Buckingham, just like when they bought the wrong London bridge.

biddles911 · Dec 22, 2016

spring hall convert said:
As much as this forum is full of wanabee pundits talking about what players have 'in their locker' and 'the promised land' of the Premier League, 'running off the ball' isn't really a pundit term, it's a skill. It's something you can watch with your own eyes at a game, if you don't just follow the ball around and actually watch a player.

I'm fascinated by this obsession with Sam's so-called skill at "running off the ball".

There are two reasons for players doing this, surely?

The first is to get in a position to receive a ball and do something with it.

Since Sam has neither the pace or the skill to do much with it he almost invariably loses it.

The second is to drag defenders out of position to create space for other players.

Since Sam is an attacker anyway you'd expect at least one defender to follow him so that's hardly dragging a defender out of position.

This only works if they feel the need to double up on him which they usually don't bother with since defenders realise pretty quickly they can manage without this.

A much better justification for Sam at the moment is that he's scoring a few goals at last!

I don't think anyone, however, whether a Sam fan or not, would argue that we don't need more cover in attack which hopefully will be sorted in January.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

spring hall convert · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
I don't think anyone, however, whether a Sam fan or not, would argue that we don't need more cover in attack which hopefully will be sorted in January.

No one is. I don't even think that many are arguing that it would be nice to have an upgrade in his position. But the way the persistent poster on this thread is talking you'd think he'd contributed nothing to our position this year. That patently isn't true.

Seagull Mags · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
I'm fascinated by this obsession with Sam's so-called skill at "running off the ball".

There are two reasons for players doing this, surely?

The first is to get in a position to receive a ball and do something with it.

Since Sam has neither the pace or the skill to do much with it he almost invariably loses it.

The second is to drag defenders out of position to create space for other players.

Since Sam is an attacker anyway you'd expect at least one defender to follow him so that's hardly dragging a defender out of position.

This only works if they feel the need to double up on him which they usually don't bother with since defenders realise pretty quickly they can manage without this.

A much better justification for Sam at the moment is that he's scoring a few goals at last!

I don't think anyone, however, whether a Sam fan or not, would argue that we don't need more cover in attack which hopefully will be sorted in January.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So what point are you trying to make? You agree Sam runs well of the ball to either create space for himself or a another but are happy with his current goals contribution? I think bottom line is he is a good team player who works hard for the team and gets vital goals this season and if he were injured he would be a big miss!

Brighton Mod · Dec 22, 2016

dazzer6666 said:
Same for Knockaert in that case isn't it ? He's only had one assist all season which is pretty terrible for a winger but I don't see a lot of flak being directed at him. Player stats-------not really that important in isolation in a team game. Team points overrides anything else. Balders has been an integral part of getting us where we are - and was the same last year.

Maybe because Knockhaert, is exciting, is not easily pushed off the ball, tackles back and challenges opponents, has the ability to shoot from distance, crosses the ball well, can take a direct free kick and runs around with a purpose. Its a shame he has missed a number of games for various reasons, but if you are categorising Knockhaert the same Baldock then I feel your way off the mark. Baldock doesn't score enough for a team that is running high in the table with a vastly superior goal difference to most in the Championship. I will say again that I want him to score and prove me wrong, because come the second half of the season we will need goals. lets see if we bring anyone in during the transfer window and if that player will replace Baldock.

biddles911 · Dec 22, 2016

Seagull Mags said:
So what point are you trying to make? You agree Sam runs well of the ball to either create space for himself or a another but are happy with his current goals contribution? I think bottom line is he is a good team player who works hard for the team and gets vital goals this season and if he were injured he would be a big miss!

I don't think I am saying that.

My point is that, although running off the ball is a vital component of any attacker, it's only of use if it either allows the attacker to develop the attack themself or genuinely creates space for other players, neither of which really happens with Sam for the reasons I gave.

This quality has always been cited by his supporters to compensate for his lack of goals which, personally, I've always thought a rather spurious argument.

What has warmed me to Sam this season is that he's weighing in with goals and some assists too. At the current strike rate, he should get 10-15 goals this season, which I think is very acceptable for a second striker.

The Sam issue has been pretty much done to death over several threads but I've not seen much analysis or thought as to what "running off the ball" is actually for hence my post, for what it's worth (probably not much!).

Anyway, happy Christmas to NSC posters and the team. They've both given me great pleasure the past season and a half....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pavilionaire · Dec 22, 2016

dazzer6666 said:
Same for Knockaert in that case isn't it ? He's only had one assist all season which is pretty terrible for a winger but I don't see a lot of flak being directed at him.

Maybe that's because opposition managers usually put 2 men on him, thereby opening up space elsewhere in the pitch that gets exploited by the likes of Baldock, Murray and Murphy?

dazzer6666 · Dec 22, 2016

Pavilionaire said:
Maybe that's because opposition managers usually put 2 men on him, thereby opening up space elsewhere in the pitch that gets exploited by the likes of Baldock, Murray and Murphy?

Yep

spring hall convert · Dec 22, 2016

spring hall convert said:
No one is. I don't even think that many are arguing that it would be nice to have an upgrade in his position. But the way the persistent poster on this thread is talking you'd think he'd contributed nothing to our position this year. That patently isn't true.

*wouldn't* not would

Chinman3000 · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
I'm fascinated by this obsession with Sam's so-called skill at "running off the ball".

There are two reasons for players doing this, surely?

The first is to get in a position to receive a ball and do something with it.

Since Sam has neither the pace or the skill to do much with it he almost invariably loses it.

The second is to drag defenders out of position to create space for other players.

Since Sam is an attacker anyway you'd expect at least one defender to follow him so that's hardly dragging a defender out of position.

This only works if they feel the need to double up on him which they usually don't bother with since defenders realise pretty quickly they can manage without this.

A much better justification for Sam at the moment is that he's scoring a few goals at last!

I don't think anyone, however, whether a Sam fan or not, would argue that we don't need more cover in attack which hopefully will be sorted in January.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This post shows you know nothing about football.

perseus · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
I'm fascinated by this obsession with Sam's so-called skill at "running off the ball".

There are two reasons for players doing this, surely?

The first is to get in a position to receive a ball and do something with it.

Since Sam has neither the pace or the skill to do much with it he almost invariably loses it.

The second is to drag defenders out of position to create space for other players.

Since Sam is an attacker anyway you'd expect at least one defender to follow him so that's hardly dragging a defender out of position.

This only works if they feel the need to double up on him which they usually don't bother with since defenders realise pretty quickly they can manage without this.

A much better justification for Sam at the moment is that he's scoring a few goals at last!

I don't think anyone, however, whether a Sam fan or not, would argue that we don't need more cover in attack which hopefully will be sorted in January.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Norwich were so useless in defence that Sam Baldock lost his marker completely at the near post and Norwich had three players around the penalty spot. So what did Skalak do, put the ball in the air on the penalty spot and Glenn Murray ran into the space to head the ball home.

So the Norwich trick was to put three players on Murray and leave Baldock unmarked. It didn't work!

Shropshire Seagull · Dec 22, 2016

Brighton Mod said:
'Pressing the line', 'hardly prolific, but he's effective'. Can anyone else come up with words'that are an excuse for a striker that doesn't score enough goals. Strange that we scored our two goals against Birmingham on Saturday when he was off the pitch and not pressing the line. Who would you want in the centre when Knockhaert scored, him or Baldock? If we're serious about promotion theres only one answer. We need a replacement because without Murray, for whatever reason, Baldock cannot fill the gap up front and we would fail to gain promotion. Its an important point given that we are in a results orientated sport and not one that awards points for 'running off the ball' etc, etc, and do remember that there is always a probability that both Murray and Hemed could be injured or suspended at the same time. We need a replacement if we want to secure promotion.

In a word "SPIDER"

If you don't understand - talk to any of the old-timers.
Hardly ever scored, but plenty of assists whilst playing alongside our club legend ....
Not for a minute comparing SB with spider - just responding that sometimes, how many you make can be just as important as how many the team score.

Machiavelli · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
I don't think I am saying that.

My point is that, although running off the ball is a vital component of any attacker, it's only of use if it either allows the attacker to develop the attack themself or genuinely creates space for other players, neither of which really happens with Sam for the reasons I gave.

This quality has always been cited by his supporters to compensate for his lack of goals which, personally, I've always thought a rather spurious argument.

What has warmed me to Sam this season is that he's weighing in with goals and some assists too. At the current strike rate, he should get 10-15 goals this season, which I think is very acceptable for a second striker.

The Sam issue has been pretty much done to death over several threads but I've not seen much analysis or thought as to what "running off the ball" is actually for hence my post, for what it's worth (probably not much!).

Anyway, happy Christmas to NSC posters and the team. They've both given me great pleasure the past season and a half....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The one bit I kind of disagree with is not in this post, but your previous one. In the previous one, you indicate that when Sam receives the ball, he loses it/his touch isn't good enough/etc, whereas in this one, you rightly claim that not only is he scoring but has a number of assists too. Having assists requires not losing the ball/having a good enough touch/knowing where teammates are, when and where to pass to them/etc, and all of this is problematic for your previous point, and the wider argument about what Baldock's runs bring to the team.
If your point is that Baldock's touch and ball retention could be better, then I agree with that. At times, his bizarrely erratic and, of the starting 11, technically most seem better than him. But note he also does receive balls in hugely difficult situations, either because space is limited and there are numerous players around him broadly when we're passing through the opposition, or because he's having to control Stockdale's (and occasionally Dunk's) brilliant exocets at rapid speed while also trying to ward off his covering defender.
I'm very much of the view that we need a player in Baldock's mould in January, and that he brings a lot to the team, but think his limitations means that he'd do even worse in the PL.

Seagull Mags · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
I don't think I am saying that.

My point is that, although running off the ball is a vital component of any attacker, it's only of use if it either allows the attacker to develop the attack themself or genuinely creates space for other players, neither of which really happens with Sam for the reasons I gave.

This quality has always been cited by his supporters to compensate for his lack of goals which, personally, I've always thought a rather spurious argument.

What has warmed me to Sam this season is that he's weighing in with goals and some assists too. At the current strike rate, he should get 10-15 goals this season, which I think is very acceptable for a second striker.

The Sam issue has been pretty much done to death over several threads but I've not seen much analysis or thought as to what "running off the ball" is actually for hence my post, for what it's worth (probably not much!).

Anyway, happy Christmas to NSC posters and the team. They've both given me great pleasure the past season and a half....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair comment, however I do query the part regarding Sam not making attacks happen by "running of the ball" (what ever we want to claim this attribute is)... We are flying in the league and Baldock along with the squad have all contributed in their own way, I am sure if there were stats showing player movement / sprints that Baldock would be right at the top.... If his movement wasn't effective then we would probably be second bottom not second! But as you say the Baldock thing has run it's course so Merry Xmas UTA

biddles911 · Dec 22, 2016

Machiavelli said:
The one bit I kind of disagree with is not in this post, but your previous one. In the previous one, you indicate that when Sam receives the ball, he loses it/his touch isn't good enough/etc, whereas in this one, you rightly claim that not only is he scoring but has a number of assists too. Having assists requires not losing the ball/having a good enough touch/knowing where teammates are, when and where to pass to them/etc, and all of this is problematic for your previous point, and the wider argument about what Baldock's runs bring to the team.
If your point is that Baldock's touch and ball retention could be better, then I agree with that. At times, his bizarrely erratic and, of the starting 11, technically most seem better than him. But note he also does receive balls in hugely difficult situations, either because space is limited and there are numerous players around him broadly when we're passing through the opposition, or because he's having to control Stockdale's (and occasionally Dunk's) brilliant exocets at rapid speed while also trying to ward off his covering defender.
I'm very much of the view that we need a player in Baldock's mould in January, and that he brings a lot to the team, but think his limitations means that he'd do even worse in the PL.

Think this will be my last post on SB since it wasn't the subject of the thread anyway and I've already been told I clearly know nothing about football anyway!

I take your point but assists comprise a very small proportion of the touches that SB gets in a game.

I suppose I was really differentiating in my own mind those touches that SB gets away from the goal area, which he usually loses, and those in and around the goal area (mostly the same result) but which occasionally result in an assist.

You're absolutely right about the difficulties of controlling the ball in a typical forward position but you've only got to see the difference when Murray gets the ball to lament how often we might turn a good position into a goal scoring opportunity if SB had better control.

Machiavelli · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
Think this will be my last post on SB since it wasn't the subject of the thread anyway and I've already been told I clearly know nothing about football anyway!

I take your point but assists comprise a very small proportion of the touches that SB gets in a game.

I suppose I was really differentiating in my own mind those touches that SB gets away from the goal area, which he usually loses, and those in and around the goal area (mostly the same result) but which occasionally result in an assist.

You're absolutely right about the difficulties of controlling the ball in a typical forward position but you've only got to see the difference when Murray gets the ball to lament how often we might turn a good position into a goal scoring opportunity if SB had better control.

I think Murray's control, passing, etc is similarly bizarrely erratic. Sometimes, he reminds me of Berbatov, he's that classy, at others, he's more like a donkey.

Seagull Mags · Dec 22, 2016

biddles911 said:
Think this will be my last post on SB since it wasn't the subject of the thread anyway and I've already been told I clearly know nothing about football anyway!

Probably for the best

Brighton Mod · Dec 22, 2016

Shropshire Seagull said:
In a word "SPIDER"

If you don't understand - talk to any of the old-timers.
Hardly ever scored, but plenty of assists whilst playing alongside our club legend ....
Not for a minute comparing SB with spider - just responding that sometimes, how many you make can be just as important as how many the team score.

I remember Ian Mellor very well and his contribution and he had the luxury of playing alongside Peter Ward who I remember scoring many individual, breakaway and touch in goals. Baldock is no comparison to spider, we just need more from him or the player in his position,we're now talking about promotion to the Premier League a massive step to do which we need quality in all areas of he pitch.

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