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[Politics] Are the Tories committing political suicide?



J

jasetheace

New member
Apr 13, 2011
712
Titanic said:
What happens come budget day when Comrade McDonnell has to choose between NHS or university funding?

Oh wait, silly me, it will be self-funding or some other claptrap.

#bustagain
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Labour's policies are to avoid any actual choice whatsoever. They have been quite good at it to be fair.

However, of late, I have started to admire it more for it's chutzpah rather than for any great political skill.

The tories could drive a bus through this if they were so disposed. However, the lack of any digital talent or strategy really is quite impressive too.
 




W

Wardy's twin

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2014
8,434
I would say yes IF labour were being led by a moderate right group within the party. Corbyn and more to the point Momentum scare a lot of people and will perhaps save the Tories.

Regards the wider issue of education it is a disgrace we need to take a long look at what we need not just try to achieve a ' better educated' group of people. We need to have more apprenticeships in the trades - carpentry, plumbing, electricians, science and IT not the arts. Those who do go to university should have 2 year courses , not 3 years and this will cut down both fees and living costs. Make sure industry is linked to education to stop the scam of zero pay internships.
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,300
Wardy's twin said:
I would say yes IF labour were being led by a moderate right group within the party. Corbyn and more to the point Momentum scare a lot of people and will perhaps save the Tories.

Regards the wider issue of education it is a disgrace we need to take a long look at what we need not just try to achieve a ' better educated' group of people. We need to have more apprenticeships in the trades - carpentry, plumbing, electricians, science and IT not the arts. Those who do go to university should have 2 year courses , not 3 years and this will cut down both fees and living costs.
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its sad that the constant debate around tuition fees completely ignores half the youth population, and doesn't challenge how university education could be provided.
 


W

Wardy's twin

Well-known member
Oct 21, 2014
8,434
beorhthelm said:
its sad that the constant debate around tuition fees completely ignores half the youth population, and doesn't challenge how university education could be provided.
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Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but my view is that encouraging people to go to university because that will benefit their broader education is not the answer. Our education system should be driven by what is needed in the economy and that requirement ranges from dustmen to professors and all play a vital part in the way we live.
 


F

ForestRowSeagull

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2011
954
Now Brixton
Cutting tuition fees (to say £5k) only serves as a transfer from poor to rich anyway, so this is a positive move. What would be a real vote winner (and I speak as a newly grad with £50k+ 'debt') would be to increase the maintenance limit and extend grants.
 




D

Deleted member 22389

Guest
Quite honestly there is no point in even voting anymore, you never get what they promise. Your better off getting your head down forgetting what these career politicians have to say, they are doing OK, and trying to do the best you can in the parameters. The amount of time wasted going over the same shit could be better spent.
 




beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,300
Wardy's twin said:
Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but my view is that encouraging people to go to university because that will benefit their broader education is not the answer. Our education system should be driven by what is needed in the economy and that requirement ranges from dustmen to professors and all play a vital part in the way we live.
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completely agree (apart from internships). while Labour wants to give dole out free education to half the youth inclined to go off to university, the half that dont want to or not suited have no similar provision for further training. which is odd. i also believe part of the answer to high cost of university is a shorter programme, 2 year make much more sense for many courses (not all). universities have no incentive to shorten or for that matter change at all.
 




B

BLOCK F

Well-known member
Feb 26, 2009
6,343
Tokyohands said:
Watching it from afar, you lot appear to be living under the worst government for quite some time. I certainly ain't motivated to up sticks here and bring my wife and kids over any time soon.
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Tokyohands,
Part of the problem is with Brexit. As well as the population and politicians having a pop at the 'party opposite', they are now fighting opposing views from within their own parties.
I wouldn't envy any party leader of any colour having to deal with that little lot and trying to negotiate with , let us say, stubborn EU mandarins. Not an easy job.
Don't believe all you read on here and in the more excitable parts of t'internet. Life for many isn't too bad at all; but as always, there are things that could be done better to make life easier for those who are genuinely struggling.
I think there is a great deal of frustration around, due , not in small part, to a lack of leadership in the Government for those who generally support the Tory party, and for those who don't, they see their moderate Labour party having being taken over by a far left regime and the likes of Momentum.
Between a rock and a hard place comes to mind. Hence the frustration and exaggerations that occur, with the accompanying foaming of the mouth.
Finally a lack of housing that youngsters can afford is a real problem and if this could be seen to be tackled effectively, it would go some considerable way towards bringing the population and generations together.
P.S. Housing is pretty dear in Tokyo, as I understand from my elder boy. He has a degree in Japanese and has spent quite a lot of time working and studying over there. He loves it though and I reckon he will be over there again soon!
 


alfredmizen

alfredmizen

Banned
Mar 11, 2015
6,342
Hamilton said:
I think people are waiting for the straw that breaks the camel's back. In this case, the camel has been a lack of meaningful opposition. Before I get shot down for saying that, by meaningful, I mean a space when the majority that occupy the middle ground can go. I think there is a significant majority that care about getting young people into work and into housing; that same majority cares about the economy and wants the best trade deals with Europe; they want to invest in a healthcare system that is accessible for all and leaves nobody behind; they believe that our education system is being let down and are unhappy in the disparity in pay and between the haves and the have nots.

Unfortunately, I don't think they see their future with Corbyn or McDonnell anymore than they have any believe in the ideologically charged Tory leadership. They are waiting for political leadership that is just not forthcoming. That's why this place feels like it is sailing towards the rocks no matter who is in charge.

I think May could show leadership and take on the element in her party that is putting the country at risk. That might result in a Leadership contest, but she needs to decide whether she wants to put her country first or her party first. To date, she (and Cameron before her) has put her party first. That's not a government that cares about the national interest.
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I cant believe i'm agreeing with you,.
 


mejonaNO12 aka riskit

mejonaNO12 aka riskit

Well-known member
Dec 4, 2003
21,497
England
Sorry, completely jumping in at the end of the thread here so may be completely off track with the general discussion but...

I've been paying my student loan back for the last 10 years or so.

I've never found it 'crippling' (a comment I often read) and it hasn't affected my credit score. Mortgage companies do take the repayments into their 'affordability' calculation but that's about it. It was the most fun 3 years of my life and I would do it all over again.

I've never QUITE got the outcry over them from prospective students. Sure, they are large loans but the repayments are really quite sensible in line with your earnings. I've never seen the money and, the day I pay it off (I'm about 2 grand away) I will have bonus money which I've never felt like I've missed out on.
 






Bob'n'weave

Bob'n'weave

Well-known member
Nov 18, 2016
1,970
Nr Lewes
Hamilton said:
I think people are waiting for the straw that breaks the camel's back. In this case, the camel has been a lack of meaningful opposition. Before I get shot down for saying that, by meaningful, I mean a space when the majority that occupy the middle ground can go. I think there is a significant majority that care about getting young people into work and into housing; that same majority cares about the economy and wants the best trade deals with Europe; they want to invest in a healthcare system that is accessible for all and leaves nobody behind; they believe that our education system is being let down and are unhappy in the disparity in pay and between the haves and the have nots.

Unfortunately, I don't think they see their future with Corbyn or McDonnell anymore than they have any believe in the ideologically charged Tory leadership. They are waiting for political leadership that is just not forthcoming. That's why this place feels like it is sailing towards the rocks no matter who is in charge.

I think May could show leadership and take on the element in her party that is putting the country at risk. That might result in a Leadership contest, but she needs to decide whether she wants to put her country first or her party first. To date, she (and Cameron before her) has put her party first. That's not a government that cares about the national interest.
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Got to agree with this. Party first, country second, people - way down the food chain somewhere.
 






S

seagulls4ever

New member
Oct 2, 2003
4,338
mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
Sorry, completely jumping in at the end of the thread here so may be completely off track with the general discussion but...

I've been paying my student loan back for the last 10 years or so.

I've never found it 'crippling' (a comment I often read) and it hasn't affected my credit score. Mortgage companies do take the repayments into their 'affordability' calculation but that's about it. It was the most fun 3 years of my life and I would do it all over again.

I've never QUITE got the outcry over them from prospective students. Sure, they are large loans but the repayments are really quite sensible in line with your earnings. I've never seen the money and, the day I pay it off (I'm about 2 grand away) I will have bonus money which I've never felt like I've missed out on.
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The situations aren't really comparable. Your fees were about 3k per year with an interest rate that is currently 1.5%, and there were maintenance grants for the less well off families. They are now £9250 per year with an interest rate of 3% + inflation (currently 6.1%), and all maintenance grants have been replaced with loans, meaning thousands of pounds worth of interest have accrued before students even graduate (about £6k). I don't think we should be starting people off in life with an average of 51K worth of debt (£57k for the poorer students). This is why people aren't happy. Further, the economics of it don't make any sense either, it's not logical to charge such high fees (it's just a fix by the government to make the deficit appear less than it actually is), but that's another discussion which I can't be arsed to go into.
 


S

seagulls4ever

New member
Oct 2, 2003
4,338
Tricky Dicky said:
Did they actually say that ? I know it was implied before the election when they said they'd "sort out" the fees, but I thought they back-tracked after the election saying that they'd never promised to abolish them.
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Labour's policy prior to the election was to abolish tuition fees. That remains Labour's policy. They haven't backtracked on anything.

I refer you to my post #87 for more info.
 


Beanstalk

Beanstalk

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2017
2,527
London
mejonaNO12 aka riskit said:
Sorry, completely jumping in at the end of the thread here so may be completely off track with the general discussion but...

I've been paying my student loan back for the last 10 years or so.

I've never found it 'crippling' (a comment I often read) and it hasn't affected my credit score. Mortgage companies do take the repayments into their 'affordability' calculation but that's about it. It was the most fun 3 years of my life and I would do it all over again.

I've never QUITE got the outcry over them from prospective students. Sure, they are large loans but the repayments are really quite sensible in line with your earnings. I've never seen the money and, the day I pay it off (I'm about 2 grand away) I will have bonus money which I've never felt like I've missed out on.
Click to expand...

Without going all woe is me, the problem isn't that there is a student loan at all (though ideally education should never be about pricing) it's that it is now three times as expensive as it was for people a year older than me (I was the first year of 9k tuition fees).
I stayed at University after my bachelors, and did a master's degree (mostly paid through a scholarship and the remaining money through my savings earned via part-time work). For my three years as an undergraduate I had amassed enough student debt so that I would've needed to earn £38,000 pa in my first real job to pay off the interest accrued each month (not even touching the money "borrowed"). I loved my time at Sussex and would not swap it for anything, but I am extremely lucky that my parents were able to support me to an extent, even though I was employed throughout both degrees.

Now I've found it ridiculously hard to get into my industry of choice, and am earning ridiculously less than the £38,000 needed almost 3 years ago. You are quite lucky in that paying off your loan is a possibility, I have always had a job alongside my studies, have never even taken an overdraft option let alone gone into one, and I'm still well over £50,000 in debt and rising.

Theresa can pretend that freezing tuition fees are a good thing but frankly, I don't want anyone in the future to have the spectre of debt (however, unlikely it is that it'll have to be repaid) hanging over their shoulders in exchange for taking a step into further education.
 










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