[Politics] Brexit

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

JCL666 said:
depending on how you cut the numbers..... https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

That deals with % of trade which is to/from the EU.

I'm talking about the overall economy.

As I said in a previous post:

Not all of our economy relates to import/export (16%, about half of which is with the EU (8%)).

Hence, 92% of our economy doesn't involve trade with the EU. (& 84% of our economy doesn't involve international trade at all).

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

A1X said:
So which European laws that we have seen introduced do you take particular exception to?

That's a poor argument.

Give me a benevolent tyranny which only passes nice fluffy laws which I approve of, I will still want it gone. It's the principle of who makes law.

You might not have a problem with EU law today. But none of us know who will be making what laws in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years time. It's not about a particular law but the principle of law making and accountability itself. It's not just about today and yesterday, it's about tomorrow and the next day too.

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

Diablo said:
I take exception to any "European" introduced Law. Our Government ...the one we voted in.. should be the law makers.

So which ones in particular do you not like?

If you don't like the idea of the UK Government having to take rules from other bodies then we'll presumably have to leave basically every international organisation there is, including the UN and WTO?

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
You might not have a problem with EU law today. But none of us know who will be making what laws in 5, 10, 15 20 years time. It's not about a particular law but the principle of law making and accountability itself. It's not just about today and yesterday, it's about tomorrow and the next day too.

"We should leave something now because in the future it might do stuff you don't like" is literally one of the worst takes I've ever come across in this whole issue. By that logic you might as well stop holding elections "because in 5, 10 or 20 years time someone really bad might get elected".

WATFORD zero · Jan 14, 2019

Diablo said:
I take exception to any "European" introduced Law. Our Government ...the one we voted in.. should be the law makers.

I thought all true Lewesians refused to acknowledge any laws that originated from outside the town boundary :shrug:

Baldseagull · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
We might be exempt from further integration, but we are not exempt from future European Law. Don't confuse those things.

Which is why I challenged the notion in your dystopian future that the EU could change laws to force us to have low employment standards.

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

A1X said:
"We should leave something now because in the future it might do stuff you don't like" is literally one of the worst takes I've ever come across in this whole issue. By that logic you might as well stop holding elections "because in 5, 10 or 20 years time someone really bad might get elected".

My argument is (obviously) not that we shouldn't elect our law makers. It's the opposite.

If someone bad gets elected, the you can elect someone good next time around. They are accountable and removable.

The EU Commission are not elected, and they are not removable either.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 14, 2019

Diablo said:
I take exception to any "European" introduced Law. Our Government ...the one we voted in.. should be the law makers.

Maternity leave, equal pay for women, and a48 hour week were EU introduced laws. Blue Flag beaches without untreated sewerage.

But apart from that, what has the EU ever done for us.

Green Cross Code Man · Jan 14, 2019

Pavilionaire said:
The government talks about a "democratic betrayal" if the result of the Referendum is not delivered, and yet here I sit a Lib Dem supporter, a staunch Remainer. Five years of coalition with the Tories have decimated the Lib Dems, I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country which means I'm effectively disenfranchised and now I stand to lose my European Union membership which - as someone with a Croatian father - I value dearly.

Unfortunately, your post comes over as though you think that your vote and others like you, should be worth more than people's votes that you don't agree with.

JC Footy Genius · Jan 14, 2019

A1X said:
[TWEET]1084815023795568641[/TWEET]

Erm *newsflash* we haven't left yet (and some claim/hope we never will) .. so hard to see how the UK dropping down this table (sleepless nights ahead) is related to Brexit.

I also see none of the three countries at the top of the table are EU countries which suggests having a good global passport power index score has bugger all to do with being in a political union.

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
My argument is (obviously) not that we shouldn't elect our law makers. It's the opposite.

If someone bad gets elected, the you can elect someone good next time around. They are accountable and removable.

The EU Commission are not elected, and they are not removable either.

Except, of course, there is plenty of scope for someone who didn't fancy being removed staying in power if they so chose.

As for the idea the EU is less democratically accountable than the UK...

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

Plooks said:
Yes we are seeing through project fear 2! That is why people are starting to see the lies of the Brexiteers. The traitorous MPs are all for brexit and project fear so I don't see your point?
Face it, the brexit snowflakes will lose and it will not happen. Your EU free safe space will not happen.

Look out for a UKIP or similar UK government then.

Careful what you wish for.

Thunder Bolt · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
My argument is (obviously) not that we shouldn't elect our law makers. It's the opposite.

If someone bad gets elected, the you can elect someone good next time around. They are accountable and removable.

The EU Commission are not elected, and they are not removable either.

We elect the MEPs and they vote for the Commission. They have a fixed term of office eg. Juncker is standing down this summer and will not be standing for re-election.

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

A1X said:
Except, of course, there is plenty of scope for someone who didn't fancy being removed staying in power if they so chose.

As for the idea the EU is less democratically accountable than the UK...

View attachment 103778

I know how we get rid of a Prime Minister we don't like in the country.

How is it that we get rid of an EU Commission/er which we don't like?

Incase you weren't aware, the Prime Minister doesn't have the final say in this country, Parliament does. In the EU the Parliament doesn't have the final say, the (unelected) Commission does.

Albion my Albion · Jan 14, 2019

1783 hours

Mellotron · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
No deal isn't preferable, a deal (which doesn't undermine actually leaving) is.
You are scared and want to cave. I'm not, and don't. That's all.

You cannot find me a deal that doesn't undermine leaving in the eyes of some Brexiteers. Those who voted for Leave voted for a plethora of reasons, and it is impossible to satisfy them all in a deal. How is anyone still not understanding this? The referendum was fundamentally flawed.

I'm not scared whatsoever. I have said since the morning of the 24th June 2016 that I don't believe Brexit will happen, because it will prove to be totally unworkable. It currently is looking increasingly likely that I'll be proved correct.

JC Footy Genius · Jan 14, 2019

Green Cross Code Man said:
Unfortunately, your post comes over as though you think that your vote and others like you, should be worth more than people's votes that you don't agree with.

Indeed there are obviously quite a few Lib Dem's on this thread who have yet to come to terms with the fact their particular world view (Europhile) has been rejected numerous times through the ballot box (see 2015, 2016, 2017).

A1X · Jan 14, 2019

dingodan said:
I know how we get rid of a Prime Minister we don't like in the country.

Great. The current one seems quite unpopular. How do I get rid of her?

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

Thunder Bolt said:
We elect the MEPs and they vote for the Commission. They have a fixed term of office eg. Juncker is standing down this summer and will not be standing for re-election.

The EU President is elected by MEPs. But the EU President is proposed by the European Council first. Only proposed candidates can be elected. The EU Commissioners are selected by the President.

Same with law. The EU Parliement can vote on laws (votes are not binding on the Commission). & The laws voted on must first be proposed by the Commission. The EU Parliment cannot propose legislation.

The EU is made to appear like a democracy on the surface, but in practical reality it is far from it.

dingodan · Jan 14, 2019

Plooks said:
People will not vote for a project fear UKIP. If they wanted that they would have voted in the AV instead of FPTP which is so biased towards labour and Tories we will probably never not have one in power.
If UKIP (as much as they are right wing Nazi acum) got more say in parliament, the government of the time would have had to have done something sensible about the immigration "problem" and we never would have gone down this traitorous disgusting anti-British brexit path.

UKIP will promise to repeal the European Communities Act. Instant exit from the EU. They will have a sympathetic (and very angry) audience of about 17 million potential voters.

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