Southern Rail STRIKE details

e77 · Dec 8, 2016

Diablo said:
I think they started with very little....Now has anyone any sympathy..mine is with the train user/commuter

Not that I am a spokesman for train users but I suspect people realise the network hasn't been great for a long time and dislike Southern so retain at leat a modicum of sympathy.

Diablo · Dec 8, 2016

crasher said:
Tomorrow's disruption is mainly because ASLEF drivers are declining to work overtime. Which is entirely their right. Unless you think people should be forced to work overtime?

Not forced.. but any decent people would try and help situation not make it worse..

e77 · Dec 8, 2016

dazzer6666 said:
So a proportion of cancellations tomorrow will be down to the Union action.

Some might argue it is caused by Southern not employing enough crew.

Pay your money and take your choice. Either way it isn't conducive to running a train service.

Bozza · Dec 8, 2016

e77 said:
Of course it is being done to make a point but crew shortages aren't a new thing so Southern should have employed more crew.

It would be great if they did.

You can bet the current militant crop would be less than pleased at having all their extra income involuntarily taken away from them.

dazzer6666 · Dec 8, 2016

Notters said:
Diddums most of us are forced to work unpaid overtime.

I haven't had a penny in overtime in the last 25 years. I'm contracted to work 9-5 but most days are 10-11 hours (excluding the time spent commuting.....which is obviously growing by the day). Not complaining as I don't think it's particularly unusual - majority of firms would struggle to operate without paid or unpaid overtime but Southern seem to have cut things too far.

Spiros · Dec 8, 2016

crasher said:
I'm afraid that's often how industrial action works. It's the only power the ordinary worker has.

A normal strike is where the workers take action which damages their employer in order to force their hand in negotiations. What's different about this lot of strikes is that the union and their members know that it is having no effect on the employer and only shafting the travelling public. It's not about safety (otherwise why have the unions been so meek about DOO everywhere else?). It's about unions still trying to show that they have power in a changing industry. Yet the unions are so bad at what they do that they can still lose the support of the public when taking on the least popular of the train companies. It's as if GTR, RMT and ASLEF are competing about who can be the least competent and most hated. Tossers, the lot of 'em.

Notters · Dec 8, 2016

crasher said:
You should join a union then.

I was already in one. It was called the European Union. Membership was free and it championed workers rights across the continent.

crasher · Dec 8, 2016

Diablo said:
Not forced.. but any decent people would try and help situation not make it worse..

But what you're arguing is that people should never go on strike, or decline to work extra hours, if it inconveniences others.

That is the very definition of industrial action - if no one feels its effects it's kind of pointless isn't it?

That said, I do agree with what [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] said elsewhere, that it would't hurt the unions to apologise for the effect of their action on us. I just don't think they should apologise for taking action.

e77 · Dec 8, 2016

Bozza said:
It would be great if they did.

You can bet the current militant crop would be less than pleased at having all their extra income involuntarily taken away from them.

There is (seemingly) a business need for more staff. Be difficult for a union to complain if more people were employed.

dazzer6666 · Dec 8, 2016

e77 said:
Some might argue it is caused by Southern not employing enough crew.

Pay your money and take your choice. Either way it isn't conducive to running a train service.

Part of the root cause, yes - bad management. No-one is disputing that.

I do pay my money (£50 a DAY FFS) but like most commuters I don't have a choice. As things are, the union 100% know banning overtime will **** things up for the public even more at this point in time, but they still do it anyway, making a bad situation much worse and most likely achieving naff-all.

Bozza · Dec 8, 2016

crasher said:
That said, I do agree with what [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] said elsewhere, that it would't hurt the unions to apologise for the effect of their action on us. I just don't think they should apologise for taking action.

That was my only point here.

It doesn't fit well with their general tone though, which seems to be that of a little, shouty, perma-angry Northerner.

trueblue · Dec 8, 2016

crasher said:
Tomorrow's disruption is mainly because ASLEF drivers are declining to work overtime. Which is entirely their right. Unless you think people should be forced to work overtime?

This. If a business is utterly decimated to the point that it can barely operate at all because its staff won't work overtime, doesn't that suggest it's not a very well run business? Well, other than for its shareholders. Especially when the taxpayer is footing the bill. Not pleased by strike action but that doesn't excuse Southern treating its customers with utter contempt time and again. Their response to the Villa shambles was a disgrace

crasher · Dec 8, 2016

Spiros said:
What's different about this lot of strikes is that the union and their members know that it is having no effect on the employer and only shafting the travelling public.

I'd argue it is having an effect on the employer because at least in helping them trash their reputation. But I agree it's an usual situation because the company doesn't lose any revenue because the government (i.e. us the taxpayer) is picking up the financial cost.

Diablo · Dec 8, 2016

crasher said:
But what you're arguing is that people should never go on strike, or decline to work extra hours, if it inconveniences others.

That is the very definition of industrial action - if no one feels its effects it's kind of pointless isn't it?

That said, I do agree with what [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] said elsewhere, that it would't hurt the unions to apologise for the effect of their action on us. I just don't think they should apologise for taking action.

Not at all... I feel that, as do most sensible people, change is inevitable and this strike is trying to stop progress.

Beach Hut · Dec 8, 2016

Diablo said:
Not at all... I feel that, as do most sensible people, change is inevitable and this strike is trying to stop progress.

Very salient point a lot of this is about resistance of change, I would challenge anyone who has been with a company 5 years or more that nothing changed

e77 · Dec 8, 2016

dazzer6666 said:
Part of the root cause, yes - bad management. No-one is disputing that.

I do pay my money (£50 a DAY FFS) but like most commuters I don't have a choice. As things are, the union 100% know banning overtime will **** things up for the public even more at this point in time, but they still do it anyway, making a bad situation much worse and most likely achieving naff-all.

Crew shortages and short formations didn't start with this round of industrial action.

I think the unions are beginning to overreach but it is the only way they can make their point. The Government are determined to smash the rail unions and Southern rail users are collateral damage.

Sussex gets an awful deal with transport. The Brighton Mainline is not fit for purpose and any plans to dual carriageway the A27 seem to get constantly delayed then forgotten about.

crasher · Dec 8, 2016

Diablo said:
Not at all... I feel that, as do most sensible people, change is inevitable and this strike is trying to stop progress.

Well you may be right.

But if the union disagrees on that point, they have the right to strike and the fact it inconveniences you and me doesn't negate that right IMO.

dazzer6666 · Dec 8, 2016

e77 said:
Crew shortages and short formations didn't start with this round of industrial action.

I think the unions are beginning to overreach but it is the only way they can make their point. The Government are determined to smash the rail unions and Southern rail users are collateral damage.

Sussex gets an awful deal with transport. The Brighton Mainline is not fit for purpose and any plans to dual carriageway the A27 seem to get constantly delayed then forgotten about.

Agree with all of that......problem is hundreds of thousands of passengers are being used as pawns. Really feel for those who have to use the trains for work and have no flexibility like homeworking etc. They are being royally screwed over.

theboybilly · Dec 8, 2016

Thunder Bolt said:
If you're a wheelchair user, how do you get on a train?

Ring The Clamp for assistance as he seems to know everything. It would be interesting to know what vital job he does so we can dissect it and find out if he's dispensible

beorhthelm · Dec 8, 2016

e77 said:
I think the unions are beginning to overreach but it is the only way they can make their point. The Government are determined to smash the rail unions and Southern rail users are collateral damage.

how? i keep seeing this stated, but not how the government gets from industrial dispute to smashed union. how is this expected to play out?

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