[Football] Eng-Ger-Land v Italy tonight

Bold Seagull · Mar 28, 2018

Mellotron said:
You’re missing my point, and - for my understanding - the point of VAR. It’s only for clear and obvious errors. The fact we’re still debating penalty or not shows that VAR shouldn’t have been used.

I agree, penalties are given without contact half the time let alone with highlighted contact. What VAR should do is adopt the Cricket version whereby you have added weight to the 'umpire's call'. Although, cricket has these controversies with catches as the 2D foreshortening of the view makes it look like half of the catches are dropped then they are clean catches.

Last night, the referee at the time gave no penalty, and the weight of that decision should have remained unless like you have said, it was a completely obvious foul that deemed it necessary to overturn the referee's original decision.

As it happened, he took one look, saw the slightest indication of contact and decided to overturn his own call.

Had he given a penalty in the first instance, then we could have no complaints VAR backed that decision up. I think like cricket, you need that 'umpires call' so that the original decision still carries the most weight.

Perry Milkins · Mar 28, 2018

Hendrax said:
Lallana has played 3 club games this season... auto pick

Of course with Welbeck and Sturridge. These are the names that must be picked as they play for the big teams.

Gregory2Smith1 · Mar 28, 2018

More concerned about how we insist on playing the ball out from the back

I know the modern game is all about possession, but this is a costly error just waiting to happen

McTavish · Mar 28, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
VAR also proved that Lingard had stopped the ball, for the quick free kick, that led to our goal. There were protests from the Italians, but the ref accepted the ball wasn't moving.

Yes, but the referee had already decided that the ball wasn't moving so all that VAR did was to stop the celebration, waste a bit of time and then start the celebration again. It took alot of the fun and spontaneity out of the goal and added nothing.

trueblue · Mar 28, 2018

I was HUGELY in favour of VAR. But the way it’s being used is nothing like I imagined. It was meant to be to avoid massive howlers - not watch incidents several times to decide there’s been accidental contact because someone is running.

If that’s the yardstick, then football will be ruined. Regardless of the letter of the law, we all have an understanding through experience of what ‘merits’ a penalty. It’s a contact sport and there are grey areas. This was meant to be for the ‘black and white’ decisions - someone hacked down, someone going down when not touched at all.

I’m almost at the point of hoping the World Cup is a complete farce so the whole thing is scrapped, which is a shame as, implemented properly, I still think it would be useful.

Thunder Bolt · Mar 28, 2018

Blind Pugh said:
Of course with Welbeck and Sturridge. These are the names that must be picked as they play for the big teams.

Southgate already knows their skill from the U21s (and U18s etc)

Thunder Bolt · Mar 28, 2018

McTavish said:
Yes, but the referee had already decided that the ball wasn't moving so all that VAR did was to stop the celebration, waste a bit of time and then start the celebration again. It took alot of the fun and spontaneity out of the goal and added nothing.

Do we know that? How do we know that the ref had missed the hand on ball to stop it, and spoke into his mike to ask VAR?

Thunder Bolt · Mar 28, 2018

scamander said:
did they take into account the body position of the Italian player when Tarks trod on his foot? From what I saw the player was off balance and falling over when this happened, you can't expect defenders to leap out of the way of players in the box in case they make contact.

Forwards are already looking for any contact in the penalty area as it is.

The Italian player was off balance because Young was squeezing him in. It wasn't all down to Tarkowski.

Bold Seagull · Mar 28, 2018

Gregory2 said:
More concerned about how we insist on playing the ball out from the back

I know the modern game is all about possession, but this is a costly error just waiting to happen

Blimey, I am completely the reverse!

At last we seem to have a team brave enough to retain possession in tight spots. At times I thought our full backs and Stones in particular worked some lovely moves. More than happy to take the risks over keep giving the ball away a.k.a every other tournament I can think of in the last 25 years or so.

beorhthelm · Mar 28, 2018

Kinky Gerbils said:
As soon as it goes to VAR you put pressure on the ref to give it.

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Think that it's very difficult to 'dis-invent' technology. Not sure that any sport has introduced it and then shelved it?

i dont think the technology is necessarily the problem and we punters have asked for "something to be done" for years about blatant fouls and off ball incidents missed. the problem is the application of the technology. it should have a tight time limit, if the VT ref having signaled there was an issue, cant give a clear answer in a few seconds then the ref should restart. that takes the pressure off the ref and keeps the technology to genuine cases of missed incidents, rather than marginal infringements.

hans kraay fan club · Mar 28, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
The Italian player was off balance because Young was squeezing him in. It wasn't all down to Tarkowski.

Yes.

Between them, the two England players brought down the Italian.

All of the other arguments are making Southgate, Tarkowski, Alan Shearer and a load of people on this thread look like whiney bitches.

Its a foul challenge.

If the VAR protocols were incorrectly followed or not, it was still a foul challenge.

If the Italian player was already off balance, it is still a foul challenge. You can't clatter into someone just because they're off balance.

If the ball had already got away from him, it is still a foul challenge. You don't have to be in control of the ball to be fouled.

McTavish · Mar 28, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
Do we know that? How do we know that the ref had missed the hand on ball to stop it, and spoke into his mike to ask VAR?

OK, maybe he hadn't seen that the ball wasn't moving but he hadn't seen that it was moving or he would have blown his whistle. If he hasn't seen it moving he can't disallow the goal so all the VAR is doing is re-refereeing something fairly trivial and sucking the life out of the game

A1X · Mar 28, 2018

Watched some of last night. It amazes me after watching the woeful defending on display from England at times that Dunk can't get a look in. Ridiculous.

As for Welbeck and Sturridge, we all know who the third best English striker is right now, but he's not going to get picked.

Perry Milkins · Mar 28, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
Southgate already knows their skill from the U21s (and U18s etc)

Of course. Does he know their injury track record?

Kinky Gerbil · Mar 28, 2018

Blind Pugh said:
Of course with Welbeck and Sturridge. These are the names that must be picked as they play for the big teams.

Damn right, along with the players form Massive clubs like Burnley,Swansea,Stoke and Bournemouth.

Or maybe as he was the best performing in the qualifying he has more than enough credit in the bank ?

Kinky Gerbil · Mar 28, 2018

A1X said:
Watched some of last night. It amazes me after watching the woeful defending on display from England at times that Dunk can't get a look in. Ridiculous.

As for Welbeck and Sturridge, we all know who the third best English striker is right now, but he's not going to get picked.

Rashford was in the squad?

maltaseagull · Mar 28, 2018

I wonder how many pissed up Italians we will see throwing wine over tourist boats on the Thames?

scamander · Mar 28, 2018

hans kraay fan club said:
Sorry, but yes, yes you can. Your view is clearly through claret tinted specs. 'Tarks' is behind the opposition player, charging along. If he can't get the ball, then he's got to pull out, to avoid the contact. Instead he just barrels on. It was clumsy at best*. We can definitely debate the rights and wrongs of the VAR protocols, but on the actual foul, you're clutching at straws.

*That said, he did fine on the whole, that incident aside. Needs to know his limitations on the long diags though. He's no Lewis Dunk in that respect, for sure.

The fact that Tarks is a Claret makes no difference to me, I pulled him up on the penalty he gave away earlier this season which some neutrals thought of as 'soft'. As a Claret though I feel sorry for Ben Mee who seems to get overlooked, would be perfect in the back 3 on the left hand side. I rate him higher than Tarks.

hans kraay fan club · Mar 28, 2018

scamander said:
The fact that Tarks is a Claret makes no difference to me, I pulled him up on the penalty he gave away earlier this season which some neutrals thought of as 'soft'. As a Claret though I feel sorry for Ben Mee who seems to get overlooked, would be perfect in the back 3 on the left hand side. I rate him higher than Tarks.

On that I agree.

Easy 10 · Mar 28, 2018

The pen was not a "clear error" by the ref, it was a very marginal call. Therefore it should never have been flagged up by the bloke at the airport, as it was clearly a debatable decision. The original on-field decision was perfectly understandable and sound.

Having been hauled over to the touchline to review it though, the ref probably felt obliged to give it, having seen a POSSIBLE foul (depending on your interpretation). This is NOT how we are told VARS is supposed to be implemented though.

We also have a clear inconsistency in how it is being used. In the Chelsea v Arsenal League Cup tie at the Bridge, Moses lunged in on Maitland-Niles in the box for what looked like a good penalty shout. As soon as the ball went dead, the ref stood there for over a minute with his finger in his ear, as the VARS official reviewed the incident. Eventually no pen was awarded, but at no point did the on-field ref go over to the touchline to look at the incident for himself. He just allowed the VAR to make the decision on whether it should be a pen or not.

Its a mess. An utter mess.

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