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UKIP Surge Ahead!



WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
26,015
c0lz said:
how did we ever survived before joining in the EU.
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As far as I remember, in 1973 before we joined the European Community (yes, i'm that old !) we survived with far worse healthcare, housing, education, nutrition, technology etc etc resulting in a life expectancy 10 years less than we currently have. In fact, my memories of it are that it was fairly shit and not the way the Daily Mail remember it at all !

Note : I am not saying all or any of these improvements are down to the EU, just that it is a completely meaningless comparison and to believe that we can 'go back' to some Dad's Army type romantic notion is complete fantasy.
 




GreersElbow

GreersElbow

New member
Jan 5, 2012
4,870
A Northern Outpost
Milton Keynes Seagull said:
That's the prelude to the referendum on getting us out. A means to an end, if you like.
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Lol, we'll still have to pay to access the single market and have no say in decision making. Yay.

c0lz said:
how did we ever survived before joining in the EU.
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We were the sick man of Europe, have you ever heard of this thing called 'globalisation'?

beorhthelm said:
interesting perspective as being part of a bloc can restrict opportunities to trade. as part of the EU we are unable to establish free trade with say China or Columbia, and as the EU have vested interests to block trade with some countries on many markets, they hamper UK business. the EU is a protectionist club. i know this isn't always the case, but by and large being part of the EU only impacts positively on trade with those other nations.
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UKIP's entire economic policy is protectionist, unfortunately many politicians struggle and shivver at the idea of free-trade as it's just another loss of receipts for the treasury..
 




GreersElbow

GreersElbow

New member
Jan 5, 2012
4,870
A Northern Outpost
http://www.smmt.co.uk/2014/04/uk-automotive-industry-europe/

Major industry says we need to stay in the EU or a public school boy, who worked in banking then became a politician says we should leave the EU, and tells us all he's closer to the average person because he drinks real ale and chugs a cigarette like a propa geeza.

Who am I going to listen to? I'll take the logical route of listening to businesses.
 


C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,748
El Presidente said:
Perhaps [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] or [MENTION=1079]Milton Keynes Seagull[/MENTION] could book a ticket and speak at the following, as we are struggling for anyone to put together a cohesive, non-emotional based case for EU withdrawal.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/heseltine-institute/policy-provocations/eu/
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I think it is possible to make a decent coherent (non emotional) case of why backing out of the EU would be economically beneficial, however I can equally accept that there are sound and compelling economic reasons for staying in.

Over recent years I don’t think that economists have been able to completely align themselves on the benefits of staying in the EU, and the fact that there are plenty of discordant assessments by eminent economists means that the economic benefits are likely factored somewhere in the margins. The attached negative article for example is by a professor of economics, I accept there are plenty of positive views online too…………..particularly by Will Hutton and Jonathan Portes.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/...ic-failures-will-soon-political-failures.html

Notwithstanding the economic arguments though, there are so many other "non economic" moving parts to our relationship with the EU, such as democratic legitimacy, legal supremacy, foreign policy, CAP, costs to taxpayers etc. that is difficult to wrap these all up into a single view. In discussions of this nature it is unrealistic to argue that the whole of the EU is bad, or corrupt etc. because the spread of EU influence is so broad.

The point I would make in response to your request though is that much of the unease that people have with the EU is actually emotive; and you cannot remove this emotional element from the argument.

What can be more emotive than for the indigenous people of these islands than the perception that the country they are living in, has lost the ability to control itself and its destiny? Like it not, that is how many people FEEL today, and because that is how they FEEL, it is the arguments being put forward by UKIP that chime most with that sense of loss (as it did in the previous 2009 euro elections when UKIP polled more than Labour and nearly 1m people voted BNP).

I think it’s also fair to say that this feeling is not just about the EU per se, as it includes the UK’s own wider political system. Such has been the pace of change in the UK in the last 30 years, and such has been the failure of the UK’s politicians to do anything about it (other than the routine platitudes about celebrating this change) then its little wonder that a significant proportion of “auld” British feel disenfranchised by the UK and EU political system. Indeed I suspect many feel that the UK’s political classes have nothing but contempt for them and their views, a belief so eloquently encapsulated by Gordon Brown when he referred to a lifelong labour supporter’s as a “bigoted woman”.

You may want to make the argument just on cold logical economics, but you cannot discount the gut instinct of people's voting intentions. It’s no good just attacking the party, its supporters or its leaders……………..people need to really grasp why UKIP are currently so popular; dismissing them out of hand as fruitcakes or loonies is not working.
 




C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,748
Simster said:
Perhaps the worst thing the pro-EU camp have done is put fluffy-haired, unprincipled, VI Form-esque politico, Nick Clegg up against Nigel Farage.

Farage is clearly quite good at what he does right now, and Clegg isn't. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the pro-EU wing of British politics get their act together, take UKIP seriously and take them on with proper economics. I do feel Farage has the easier job, hoovering up votes from the less well informed and disaffected Tories, but remain convinced that a half decent politician with a background in economics would absolutely wipe the floor with him.

I see the same thing happening on here - anti-EU [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] has been nothing if not utterly convincing so often on here, except when pro-EU [MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION] presents his own facts. It's no surprise that El Pres is an economist and is the only person cunning fergus ends up retorting rather feebly to.
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Ahem................a feeble retort, me?

Surely not......................(awaits correction).
 


El Presidente

El Presidente

The ONLY Gay in Brighton
Helpful Moderator
Jul 5, 2003
39,717
Pattknull med Haksprut
cunning fergus said:
I think it is possible to make a decent coherent (non emotional) case of why backing out of the EU would be economically beneficial, however I can equally accept that there are sound and compelling economic reasons for staying in.

You may want to make the argument just on cold logical economics, but you cannot discount the gut instinct of people's voting intentions. It’s no good just attacking the party, its supporters or its leaders……………..people need to really grasp why UKIP are currently so popular; dismissing them out of hand as fruitcakes or loonies is not working.
Click to expand...

I agree with you entirely that there are many things that don't work well within the EU, cronyism and corruption exist to a degree that is obscene, the accounts are a shambles. However similar accusations can be levelled at this country too, we're not quite as cream tea and cricket as the commentators and vested interests like to make out. My overall view is that based on a cold economic assessment, the good outweighs the bad.

We don't get a rational discussion of the EU in the press (apart from the FT and The Economist), and I fully understand that UKIP supporters, like those of the BNP a few years ago, look at the identi-suits from the three established parties and want to tweak them on the nose for the smug patronising contemptuous way they treat the electorate.

My concern with UKIP is that is doesn't have policies, or a manifesto ( their most recent one was removed from their own website after Farange himself called it 'twaddle'), and that's why I don't take them seriously as a political force, because their numbers don't add up, and the policies that do get an airing ( such as opposing HS2 yet wanting to expand the rail network ) are contradictory and, a bit like when Dorothy peeks behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz, reveal not a lot is actually there behind the sound bites and photo opportunities.
 






seagullsovergrimsby

seagullsovergrimsby

#cpfctinpotclub
Aug 21, 2005
43,691
Crap Town
Westdene Seagull said:
Many a British politician has gone on to work within the EU structure. Despite being anti-EU Neil Kinnock ( and his wife ) have made a fair amount of money working for the EU. That doesn't account for the MEP's of all parties ( including UKIP ) who rake in disgustingly high salaries and expense claims.

The EU is, and always has been, a political experiment to merge the various independent countries of Europe into one. The EU as we know it today had it's blueprints drawn up when the UK was asked to vote for the Common Market. Heath stated in a number of interviews that the plan was always a United States of Europe but that in the early seventies this couldn't be divulged to the UK voters as they would have voted against joining.
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Is this the same Neil Kinnock who was so anti the House of Lords that he declared he would never be elevated to the "Other House" ? I see after his foray as a EU transport commissioner and a vice presidency he became Baron Kinnock in 2005 while his wife Glenys took a life peerage in 2009.
 


M

Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
16,742
Fiveways
Westdene Seagull said:
Many a British politician has gone on to work within the EU structure. Despite being anti-EU Neil Kinnock ( and his wife ) have made a fair amount of money working for the EU. That doesn't account for the MEP's of all parties ( including UKIP ) who rake in disgustingly high salaries and expense claims.

The EU is, and always has been, a political experiment to merge the various independent countries of Europe into one. The EU as we know it today had it's blueprints drawn up when the UK was asked to vote for the Common Market. Heath stated in a number of interviews that the plan was always a United States of Europe but that in the early seventies this couldn't be divulged to the UK voters as they would have voted against joining.
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Equally, many a EU politician has gone on to work within the British parliamentary structure (Clegg, Lucas, for instance, and Farage?). If your point is that if we get rid of the EU, there won't be switching between different levels of politics, I think you might prove rather disappointed.
 






C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,748
El Presidente said:
I agree with you entirely that there are many things that don't work well within the EU, cronyism and corruption exist to a degree that is obscene, the accounts are a shambles. However similar accusations can be levelled at this country too, we're not quite as cream tea and cricket as the commentators and vested interests like to make out. My overall view is that based on a cold economic assessment, the good outweighs the bad.

We don't get a rational discussion of the EU in the press (apart from the FT and The Economist), and I fully understand that UKIP supporters, like those of the BNP a few years ago, look at the identi-suits from the three established parties and want to tweak them on the nose for the smug patronising contemptuous way they treat the electorate.

My concern with UKIP is that is doesn't have policies, or a manifesto ( their most recent one was removed from their own website after Farange himself called it 'twaddle'), and that's why I don't take them seriously as a political force, because their numbers don't add up, and the policies that do get an airing ( such as opposing HS2 yet wanting to expand the rail network ) are contradictory and, a bit like when Dorothy peeks behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz, reveal not a lot is actually there behind the sound bites and photo opportunities.
Click to expand...


I tell you what, let's assume your analysis is correct, and the EU provides more economic benefits for the UK. We would also agree then, that this position is not, and cannot be a constant because it is subject to lots of macro and micro economic factors.

So, for example, when all was well in the EU back in the early to mid 00s the economic benefits were unequivocally better for the UK than they are now many parts of the EU is in chaos (the consequences of Ireland's shrinking economy on the UK springs immediately to mind).

Looking at the future then, as a consequence of the crisis in the Eurozone, the EZ countries are planning to essentially integrate into a single fiscal and political compact, thus placing a significant macro economic question mark on whether there are future economic benefits for the UK in the new EU construct.

One thing we would agree though is that in order for the economic benefits to continue, the policies of the more integrated EZ must be sympathetic to the UK which has chosen to remain outside the EZ. This in turn creates another question mark as to whether the new integrated EZ will allow the UK to influence its own policies, and not least if the UK interests (like protecting the city) are not in the interests of the EZ.

Here is a useful overview of the current position;

http://www.social-europe.eu/2013/03/future-scenarios-for-the-eurozone/

There are portents of this future, the "Tobin" tax being a prime example, as are EU proposals on EU trust arrangements which will have a significant impact on the UK which has trust law embedded in its common law.

On this analysis, nobody can say with any certainty that the future EU will be in our economic interests.

The irony of your comments about UKIPs lack of policy is not lost on me...............
 




Seagull on the wing

Seagull on the wing

New member
Sep 22, 2010
7,458
Hailsham
It all boils down to one thing...a British politician in parliament can be voted out...try voting out a European in the EU,NO CHANCE,lets shape our destiny,our laws,our human rights,shape our own future but still trade with the EU,seeing as we import more than we export I cannot see them putting up the shutters.
 






C

cunning fergus

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2009
4,748
El Presidente said:
I agree with you entirely that there are many things that don't work well within the EU, cronyism and corruption exist to a degree that is obscene, the accounts are a shambles. However similar accusations can be levelled at this country too, we're not quite as cream tea and cricket as the commentators and vested interests like to make out. My overall view is that based on a cold economic assessment, the good outweighs the bad.

We don't get a rational discussion of the EU in the press (apart from the FT and The Economist), and I fully understand that UKIP supporters, like those of the BNP a few years ago, look at the identi-suits from the three established parties and want to tweak them on the nose for the smug patronising contemptuous way they treat the electorate.

My concern with UKIP is that is doesn't have policies, or a manifesto ( their most recent one was removed from their own website after Farange himself called it 'twaddle'), and that's why I don't take them seriously as a political force, because their numbers don't add up, and the policies that do get an airing ( such as opposing HS2 yet wanting to expand the rail network ) are contradictory and, a bit like when Dorothy peeks behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz, reveal not a lot is actually there behind the sound bites and photo opportunities.
Click to expand...


Interesting editorial in the Guardian today, finally some grudging acceptance that the electorates discontent with the EU and the UK's political system is genuine and should be dealt with mainstream political parties. About time too, let's see whether this does end the sanctimony amongst their columnists and readership.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/28/european-elections-the-wolf-at-the-door

Sadly the UK's politicians are still way behind that particular curve, if ever the political elite wanted to demonstrate to the electorate just how desperate they are to stay in power then this is it.........

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/ukip-european-election-accused-of-racism

This kind of intolerance for any counter view, and reluctance to do anything else but scream "waycist" and play to the metropolitan middle class gallery has worn gossamer thin. However the lengths these bigots are willing to go to should not be underestimated, and explains tactics such as this.......

http://www.w4mpjobs.org/JobDetails.aspx?jobid=45223

Whether or not people support UKIP politically, if voting for them generates change (and sweeps away) the type of politicians who posses the kind of profound contempt for the views of the electorate, then frankly that can only be a good thing. A British spring if you will.
 


pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
sahel said:
They would all insist that we follow the rules of the single market. And I would also guess they would be in no rush to accommodate us. And companies from all over the would suddenly think that investing in the UK in order to access the EU would not make sense.
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Considering my original question was .......can someone please explain to me why pulling out of the EU would prevent us from setting up individual trade agreements with other EU countries ..........you seem to be slightly off balance.

Well they couldnt insist we follow all the rules of the single market......we would be out of the EU.......that is the whole point.

However we pull out of the EU,negotiate deals with all the European countries individually or en masse to ensure trade continues with product standards still in place and still no tariffs or charges for trading.

Do you really believe the EU would be "in no rush to accommodate us",do you honestly think they will say screw you.....you left you are on your own little englanders.

This is the scaremongering of the anti brigade and it makes no common or economic sense what so ever.

The economic argument by the anti brigade is a complete and utter red herring,it exists to scare people only,if you wish to argue a UKIP government would be crap at running the economy i would agree with you,but that is not the issue.

If these economic measures were still in place after pulling out of the EU (which is what UKIP wants) what is it you are against?

I can only presume you have issues concerning the free movement of people within the EU(a valid argument which needs discussing),border control and you have a problem with people seeking to return our parliament as our elected governing body.

im not really sure you understand what the policies of UKIP are though
 
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S

sahel

Active member
Jan 24, 2014
224
cunning fergus said:
I tell you what, let's assume your analysis is correct, and the EU provides more economic benefits for the UK. We would also agree then, that this position is not, and cannot be a constant because it is subject to lots of macro and micro economic factors.

So, for example, when all was well in the EU back in the early to mid 00s the economic benefits were unequivocally better for the UK than they are now many parts of the EU is in chaos (the consequences of Ireland's shrinking economy on the UK springs immediately to mind).

Looking at the future then, as a consequence of the crisis in the Eurozone, the EZ countries are planning to essentially integrate into a single fiscal and political compact, thus placing a significant macro economic question mark on whether there are future economic benefits for the UK in the new EU construct.

One thing we would agree though is that in order for the economic benefits to continue, the policies of the more integrated EZ must be sympathetic to the UK which has chosen to remain outside the EZ. This in turn creates another question mark as to whether the new integrated EZ will allow the UK to influence its own policies, and not least if the UK interests (like protecting the city) are not in the interests of the EZ.

Here is a useful overview of the current position;

http://www.social-europe.eu/2013/03/future-scenarios-for-the-eurozone/

There are portents of this future, the "Tobin" tax being a prime example, as are EU proposals on EU trust arrangements which will have a significant impact on the UK which has trust law embedded in its common law.

On this analysis, nobody can say with any certainty that the future EU will be in our economic interests.

The irony of your comments about UKIPs lack of policy is not lost on me...............
Click to expand...


The thing is the EU has never been just an economic project. Whisper it softly but it has always been a political project. Historically it was a response to two world wars and you can argue it has helped deliver peace and prosperity in Europe. Now it is a beacon to former Soviet Union countries that could well have taken a much darker path. People that believe in it for the future obviously believe that co-operation between states is a much more powerful model than single state sovereignty where states compete and achieve the lowest common denominator in everything from tax to health and safety. The sovereignty you give up in being part of the EU is more than compensated by the pooled sovereignty you receive. The sovereignty of one small state acting alone like the UK is a chimera - it cannot deliver anything meaningful. To trade with other states it has to accept their rules, to deal with cross border crime terrorism and cyber issues it has to co-operate with other countries, an independent foreign policy has no clout, its defence anyway is dependent on NATO - a collection of states. The EU for all its faults represents states acting together for the good of their citizens offering them safety and opportunity that any one state cannot provide. The UK ought to embrace the challenge of trying to make sure it works effectively rather than opting out and going back to the old ways of competition and conflict.
 




pastafarian

pastafarian

Well-known member
Sep 4, 2011
11,902
Sussex
sahel said:
The thing is the EU has never been just an economic project. Whisper it softly but it has always been a political project.
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Ask your parents what the selling point was for joining the EU


sahel said:
The sovereignty you give up in being part of the EU is more than compensated by the pooled sovereignty you receive.
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Bollocks

sahel said:
to deal with cross border crime terrorism and cyber issues it has to co-operate with other countries,
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yep no problem....have telephone will call interpol or other police if looking for a jihadi nutter,if we leave the EU will no one pick up the phone?

sahel said:
an independent foreign policy has no clout,
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Tell that to Putin
 


S

sahel

Active member
Jan 24, 2014
224
pastafarian said:
Ask your parents what the selling point was for joining the EU




Bollocks



yep no problem....have telephone will call interpol or other police if looking for a jihadi nutter,if we leave the EU will no one pick up the phone?



Tell that to Putin
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I don't need to ask my parents -I was there!

It's difficult to know how to respond to "bollocks" in an intelligent way. Still that's the attraction of UKIP isn't it. Life is simple No need for intelligent debate just emotive "straight talking" "from the heart". God help us!

Putin respects power and influence not some small state off the coast of Europe
 


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