[Politics] Brexit

pastafarian · Jul 16, 2018

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Thank you. But you've missed a major sticking point: the border with Ireland?

DUP: Irish hard border 'a red-herring'
Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Bill

The DUP's Sammy Wilson says that peace in Northern Ireland has been thrown around "willy-nilly", with MPs treating the Good Friday agreement as a "kind of bedtime story" in their arguments over Brexit.
He argues that too many people don't even understand the realities of the Irish border and that New Clause 37, which rules out a border in the Irish sea, would help preserve peace.
"It is not essential to have a hard border," he says, "it is a red-herring".
The law says a separate customs arrangement for Northern Ireland cannot happen, he says, and that "people fail to understand" the reality of the situation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44849501

New Clause 37 would rule out a post-Brexit customs border in the Irish sea and directly contradicts the EU's legal draft of the so called "Irish backstop".
New Clause 37 was approved unanimously without division.

Baldseagull · Jul 17, 2018

pastafarian said:
DUP: Irish hard border 'a red-herring'
Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Bill

The DUP's Sammy Wilson says that peace in Northern Ireland has been thrown around "willy-nilly", with MPs treating the Good Friday agreement as a "kind of bedtime story" in their arguments over Brexit.
He argues that too many people don't even understand the realities of the Irish border and that New Clause 37, which rules out a border in the Irish sea, would help preserve peace.
"It is not essential to have a hard border," he says, "it is a red-herring".
The law says a separate customs arrangement for Northern Ireland cannot happen, he says, and that "people fail to understand" the reality of the situation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44849501

New Clause 37 would rule out a post-Brexit customs border in the Irish sea and directly contradicts the EU's legal draft of the so called "Irish backstop".
New Clause 37 was approved unanimously without division.

You don't believe that is going to stick though do you?

pastafarian · Jul 17, 2018

Baldseagull said:
You don't believe that is going to stick though do you?

There was zero objection to it, why wouldnt that amendment remain part of the bill.

GT49er · Jul 17, 2018

Gwylan said:
What bollocks? I said four things:.

Rather more than four actually, but let's carry on.........................

Gwylan said:
a) That the Tories, in 1972, were overwhelmingly pro Europe (and that Macmillan had tried to join earlier).

Pro Europe, yes; overwhelmingly no; not as split as Labour, but definitely not united.

Gwylan said:
b) Labour was split.

Yes, I know.

Gwylan said:
c) The EEC had been in existence for 15 years before we asked to join.

Yes it had; I know that too. Joining it was a leap in the dark though, for the UK.

Gwylan said:
d) We established an alliance with several European nations to defeat Napoleon.

Yes, ad hoc military alliances, nothing like the same as the EEC/EU; we had alliances in the two world wars, and plenty more temporary arrangements before that. The alliance to defeat Napoleon, for instance, finished once Napoleon was packed off to gaol.

Gwylan said:
Oh, and I voted in the referendum too and have a better memory of it than you do.

Oh I doubt that. I was involved in Labour politics at the time, and heavily involved in the 'No' campaign, door-stepping, etc. I saw at first hand the tactics used on old and vulnerable people by the 'Yes' campaign.

Gwylan said:
You're a bit sketchy about history if you think that we've been an independent sovereign state since 1066. Hint: the UK came into existence in 1800 - you're out by 734 years. (You could argue that Great Britain came into existence earlier, but that was 1707 - you're still out by 641 years).

Don't quibble. We (as England at the time) became a sovereign nation after the Norman conquest; we added bits afterwards - still 900 years of history though. A lot longer than the EEC/EU has been in existence, and much longer than the miserable 45 years we've been in the bloody thing.

Gwylan said:
People like me, who voted to leave.

Now that, I have to confess, really did surprise me.

clapham_gull · Jul 17, 2018

For someone with no allegiance to any political party or doctrine (they aren't football teams) it's fascinating to watch the Tories utterly implode again over Europe.

Remarkable scenes to see them openly sniping at each other in parliament.

Sent from my BTV-DL09 using Tapatalk

clapham_gull · Jul 17, 2018

larus said:
Who cares? 1 vote, 3 votes, 50 votes.

Another step towards leaving the protectionist, inward looking EU. There will be minor disruption once we leave, but nothing like the Remainers/Project Fear Part 2 want to portray.

They were wrong about the Euro.
They were wrong about the impact of the VOTE to leave.
But, we’re expected to trust them now, as, they are now really, really sure this time round.

Yeah, right.

Wouldn't conflate the Euro, different debate.

What I don't understand about the exit hardliners is this.

Surely you go for any deal to get out. After which you campaign to water it down over time.

Going for an "all or nothing" approach takes the risk that the whole thing goes back to the country and we end up staying in.

They've completely lost sight of the goal.

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Chicken Run · Jul 17, 2018

Brexit campaign group Vote Leave is fined and referred to police for breaking electoral law

Does that mean we can stay in the EU now?

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jul 17, 2018

What will today bring...……………..? I see that May is trying to bring the Summer Recess forward. I suppose that's one way of closing down debate. (Admit I'd be tempted to do this were I in her position.)

Garry Nelson's teacher · Jul 17, 2018

pastafarian said:
There was zero objection to it, why wouldnt that amendment remain part of the bill.

Still got the small matter of a negotiating process to go through? (Didn't someone say that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". I thought this referred to the negotiations with the EU but it seems to apply to the Cabinet/Tory party just as much.)

nicko31 · Jul 17, 2018

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Still got the small matter of a negotiating process to go through? (Didn't someone say that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed". I thought this referred to the negotiations with the EU but it seems to apply to the Cabinet/Tory party just as much.)

The civil war in the Tory party is just shadow boxing, its what the EU 27 say that matter, not a few swivel eyed loons in the Tory party

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 17, 2018

Gwylan said:
What bollocks? I said four things:
a) That the Tories, in 1972, were overwhelmingly pro Europe (and that Macmillan had tried to join earlier)
b) Labour was split
c) The EEC had been in existence for 15 years before we asked to join
d) We established an alliance with several European nations to defeat Napoleon

Which of those four claims isn't true? (Oh, and I voted in the referendum too and have a better memory of it than you do).

You're a bit sketchy about history if you think that we've been an independent sovereign state since 1066. Hint: the UK came into existence in 1800 - you're out by 734 years. (You could argue that Great Britain came into existence earlier, but that was 1707 - you're still out by 641 years).

And you seem to have difficulty in telling the difference between a Brexiteer and a Remainer - Remainers are those who voted to stay in. People like me, who voted to leave, are not Remainers.

While it's true that De Gaulle vetoed the UK's entry - twice - it was because he thought that the UK would act as a trojan horse for the US. The US desperately wanted the UK to be a member of the EEC.

As a side issue, there were concerns about future commitment. In 1962, the Conservative party was struggling after more than a decade in power and, as I said, the Labour Party was pretty hostile to the EEC. It looked likely that Labour would win the next election and the leaders were not pro Europeans. Gaitskill was anti and Wilson was initially sceptical about Europe, although he changed his mind later, which is why he applied in 1967.

It may have been a minor factor, but the real fear was of a US-UK power axis dominating Europe.

I think the term is [MENTION=12935]GT49er[/MENTION] has been owned.

ManOfSussex · Jul 17, 2018

pastafarian said:
DUP: Irish hard border 'a red-herring'
Taxation (Cross-Border Trade) Bill

The DUP's Sammy Wilson says that peace in Northern Ireland has been thrown around "willy-nilly", with MPs treating the Good Friday agreement as a "kind of bedtime story" in their arguments over Brexit.
He argues that too many people don't even understand the realities of the Irish border and that New Clause 37, which rules out a border in the Irish sea, would help preserve peace.
"It is not essential to have a hard border," he says, "it is a red-herring".
The law says a separate customs arrangement for Northern Ireland cannot happen, he says, and that "people fail to understand" the reality of the situation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-44849501

New Clause 37 would rule out a post-Brexit customs border in the Irish sea and directly contradicts the EU's legal draft of the so called "Irish backstop".
New Clause 37 was approved unanimously without division.

It doesn't really solve anything though and Sammy Wilson is someone who once backed a UDA plan to 'cleanse' Ulster of Catholics by handing over territory to Dublin and forced repatriation, called gays 'perverts' and Sinn Fein voters 'sub humans', is a climate change denier and was naive enough to show what a special kind of ***head he is by being interviewed by Ali Gi. He's a bit of a nutbar.

pastafarian · Jul 17, 2018

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
Still got the small matter of a negotiating process to go through?

That doesnt explain why that amendment wouldnt remain part of the legislation.

Garry Nelson's teacher said:
(Didn't someone say that "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed".

Yep, its a EU core principle for the Brexit negotiations. Given that 80% of the withdrawal treaty is agreed and there will be more agreement to come over the next months, they may wish to tone that down if we get to March next year and there is maybe only one or two outstanding issues.

pastafarian · Jul 17, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
It doesn't really solve anything though and Sammy Wilson is someone who once backed a UDA plan to 'cleanse' Ulster of Catholics by handing over territory to Dublin and forced repatriation, called gays 'perverts' and Sinn Fein voters 'sub humans', is a climate change denier and was naive enough to show what a special kind of ***head he is by being interviewed by Ali Gi. He's a bit of a nutbar.

What has any of that got to do with clause 37 being included in the legislation. Are you incapable of focusing on something without swerving onto things that are totally unrelated. Its a bit childish student politics

ManOfSussex · Jul 17, 2018

pastafarian said:
What has any of that got to do with clause 37 being included in the legislation. Are you incapable of focusing on something without swerving onto things that are totally unrelated. Its a bit childish student politics

I'm not the one being childish here by clutching at something I don't understand like you are. What does Clause 37 solve? There wont be a border in the Irish Sea between constituent parts of The UK - wow, never saw that one coming. What does it solve in terms of the 208 crossing points between Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland?

The Clamp · Jul 17, 2018

larus said:
Who cares? 1 vote, 3 votes, 50 votes.

Another step towards leaving the protectionist, inward looking EU. There will be minor disruption once we leave, but nothing like the Remainers/Project Fear Part 2 want to portray.

They were wrong about the Euro.
They were wrong about the impact of the VOTE to leave.
But, we’re expected to trust them now, as, they are now really, really sure this time round.

Yeah, right.

Do you get told that you're a bore quite a lot in life?

pastafarian · Jul 17, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
I'm not the one being childish here by clutching at something I don't understand like you are. What does Clause 37 solve? There wont be a border in the Irish Sea between constituent parts of The UK - wow, never saw that one coming. What does it solve in terms of the 208 crossing points between Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland?

NC 37 rules out a post-Brexit customs border in the Irish sea and puts this into law. You could have looked it up if you didnt know.
Not clutching at anything its a clause that does what it says on the tin

ManOfSussex · Jul 17, 2018

pastafarian said:
NC 37 rules out a post-Brexit customs border in the Irish sea and puts this into law. You could have looked it up if you didnt know.

I already knew that but unlike you I also knew it solves nothing in terms of the not insignificant matter of the 208 crossing points between Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland, so in short it doesn't solve anything in regards to the Irish border.

pastafarian · Jul 17, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
I already knew that but unlike you I also knew it solves nothing in terms of the not insignificant matter of the 208 crossing points between Northern Ireland and The Republic of Ireland, so in short it doesn't solve anything in regards to the Irish border.

The clause wasnt designed to resolve anything concerning the land crossing points.The clue is in the words "Irish sea"

ManOfSussex · Jul 17, 2018

pastafarian said:
The clause wasnt designed to resolve anything concerning the land crossing points.The clue is in the words "Irish sea"

Why mention it then as answer to the question "But you've missed a major sticking point: the border with Ireland?"

You really don't know what you're talking about.

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