symyjym
Banned
Rubbish, are you saying there were only two options: Go to War or Ignore?
There was another option but you obviously only see it limited to two.
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Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power
- Thread starter goldstone
- Start date
Rubbish, are you saying there were only two options: Go to War or Ignore?
There was another option but you obviously only see it limited to two.
What was option 3. Political and economic sanctions? A REALLY stern telling off?
symyjym
Banned
Yes I think you have missed something, the West encouraged the uprisings and in the case of Libya and Syria we promised air support and weapons to the rebels.
Southwest Seagull
New member
- Jul 3, 2013
- 156
That's actually quite funny.
Southwest Seagull
New member
- Jul 3, 2013
- 156
Basically yes.
Oh. I thought he perhaps meant a DIFFERENT Option 3. One that hadn't already been tried, and hadn't already failed.
symyjym
Banned
Can you simplify it much more for me?
If that’s all you can think of then fair enough, but I really haven’t got time to write an essay for you if you are unable to think outside the box.
Czechmate
Well-known member
Quite agree , I would add Ukraine to that too . No UN , US , UK , Kiev or any other westernised body has ever visited the East of Ukraine to ask their opinion , only journalists telling and showing us all the troubles . I think you may be surprised just how many Ukrainians do not want western involvement .
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,297
rubbish. the Libyan's uprising were well underway before anyone (mostly from French and Italians) wanted to provided air support and there's been a pointed non-commitment to anything more than supplying small arms in Syria. Meanwhile the involvement of Iran and Saudi to back their favored, conflicting sides goes on quietly in the background. Egypt got on with theres all on their own.
drew
Drew
I agree. Look at the effect a stern telling off and sanctions has had on the Russian annexation of Crimea and what looks likely to happen in eastern Ukraine. It is the most effective form of diplomatic intervention!!
symyjym
Banned
Egypt
The West goaded the uprising in Egypt and then the Muslim Brotherhood got into power only to lose it again.
The West misled the Syrian rebels teasing them with help and then giving none. What did you expect Asad to do with weapons aimed at him, probably the same as what the Americans would do if they were in his situation?
It’s like the school playground mentality trying to make two kids fight.
Bevendean Hillbilly
New member
Saddam and Uday would be better off. That's for damn sure.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,297
only after it had well and truly kicked off, when it looked like they might not finish what they'd started. dont really buy into the idea that the West goaded anyone in Egypt, cheered on perhaps but the chaps on the street (with their funny head wear, some mad stuff) wheren't going by geopolitical wranglings. I dont recall any promises or even hints where made either way on Egypt.
symyjym
Banned
Grappling with unwelcome results of a revolution that he encouraged, President Obama told Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi in a phone call Tuesday that he has a responsibility to “protect the democratic principles” that Egyptians fought for............ read more here.......... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/03/egypt-obama-us-mohamed-morsi-crisis
London Irish
Well-known member
The west's support for a military dictatorship in Egypt that is busy handing out hundreds of death sentences to people who actually won an election is an absolute disgrace. That much is true.
symyjym
Banned
But that said, when they held the elections the choice was either the old regime or the rebels who were represented by the Muslim Brotherhood. Not great options but once the Muslim Brotherhood took over the people of Egypt suddenly had second thoughts and demanded that the military take it over.
It was basically a vote against the old regime rather than for the MB.
I’m not saying that sentencing 200 people to death for one person shooting a policeman is a good way to proceed but they haven’t been executed yet and it may have been a good scare tactic to bring the country into some sort of calm at that time. I haven’t heard of any problems since and I don’t think they will be executed, but I could be wrong on these last points.
As far as America and the West goes the problem is that they never know who they are really supporting.
drew
Drew
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
All those that bang on about Blair and Bush causing a million deaths should check the above website. If you do, you will see that civilians killed by coalition forces is about 20,000. Even the total documented deaths is just under 140,000. That is less than Saddam is reported to have killed in the Anfal Campaign (182,000).
Also, suggesting that Saddam only had a few years left seems to ignore the fact that his, seemingly pyschopathic, son/sons would replace him.
As for the Iran/Iraq war, of course the Americans were going to side with Iraq. The alternative of an Iranian victory would have seen the Ayatollah Khomeini expand his fundamentalism and remember the Iranians hadn't been too friendly with Americans during the Carter years. It's no different to us siding with Russia to defeat Germany. In war you support the least worst option! (bit like voting in parliament).
All those that bang on about Blair and Bush causing a million deaths should check the above website. If you do, you will see that civilians killed by coalition forces is about 20,000. Even the total documented deaths is just under 140,000. That is less than Saddam is reported to have killed in the Anfal Campaign (182,000).
Also, suggesting that Saddam only had a few years left seems to ignore the fact that his, seemingly pyschopathic, son/sons would replace him.
As for the Iran/Iraq war, of course the Americans were going to side with Iraq. The alternative of an Iranian victory would have seen the Ayatollah Khomeini expand his fundamentalism and remember the Iranians hadn't been too friendly with Americans during the Carter years. It's no different to us siding with Russia to defeat Germany. In war you support the least worst option! (bit like voting in parliament).
symyjym
Banned
Iraq study estimates war-related deaths at 461,000
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24547256
Of course his sons were worse than he was, but we were in a position to push Iraq to reform and oversee a smooth transition so that they were not part of the future. We chose to flatten the country and take the heartout of its infrustructure leaving future generations to suffer.
Great idea
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24547256
Of course his sons were worse than he was, but we were in a position to push Iraq to reform and oversee a smooth transition so that they were not part of the future. We chose to flatten the country and take the heartout of its infrustructure leaving future generations to suffer.
Great idea
Seagull1989
Well-known member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 1,197
I clicked on this thread and the advert that came up was muslim dating. Anyone else?