Trump

symyjym said:

If staged it wasn't done that well. I would say it failed.

I don't buy into conspiracies especially 9/11 because it collapsed the way it would be expected to and I don't believe any government would kill 3,000 of its own citizens, but the Sandy Hook "conspiracy" is different because it doesn't involve killing anyone.

The firehouse footage just adds to the strangeness and is hard to explain even for someone who doesn't believe it was staged.

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It would make reassuring news to believe that our governments wouldn't do such cruel and evil things. look at the illegal war in Iraq and look at every other blood thirsty war ever since, these wars have brought with them death and destruction on a scale you couldn't possibly imagine, only could you image it if it had arrived on your own doorstep. You seriously think our governments are leading us into these wars for the sake of peace and hold our best interests at heart. ?? mate they care nothing for nobody apart from themselves.

symyjym said:

He's a bad actor:

https://youtu.be/Vic5bOWGmQI

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All this bollox that different people behave in different ways,when faced with a death of their own child. come on does anyone really believe he isn't faking it. ffs it's a clear certainty he is.

If it was staged by Obama in an attempt to increase gun control (WTAF?!) you can be rest assured that Trumpski will be working round the clock to uncover the truth.

brighton fella said:

It would make reassuring news to believe that our governments wouldn't do such cruel and evil things. look at the illegal war in Iraq and look at every other blood thirsty war ever since, these wars have brought with them death and destruction on a scale you couldn't possibly imagine, only could you image it if it had arrived on your own doorstep. You seriously think our governments are leading us into these wars for the sake of peace and hold our best interests at heart. ?? mate they care nothing for nobody apart from themselves.

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I don't think our governments really know what they are doing. We expect the world to abide by the UN but when the UN say don't go to Iraq, we go in anyway based on lies and deception. If the US and UK give the UN the middle finger there is not much chance of any other leader of the world taking any notice either. Bombing Gaddafi's convoy and Cameron celebrating his Youtube lynching only teaches terrorists that brutal killing is ok by western standards. I won't even go into the our war mongering and support for the Wahhabi's in Syria that led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and 6 year war.

But yes our governments make up story lines to help them achieve their objectives which is locked into a 70 year old plan for a New World Order with the US sitting on top with us as the pet poodle.

symyjym said:

I don't think our governments really know what they are doing. We expect the world to abide by the UN but when the UN say don't go to Iraq, we go in anyway based on lies and deception. If the US and UK give the UN the middle finger there is not much chance of any other leader of the world taking any notice either. Bombing Gaddafi's convoy and Cameron celebrating his Youtube lynching only teaches terrorists that brutal killing is ok by western standards. I won't even go into the our war mongering and support for the Wahhabi's in Syria that led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and 6 year war.

But yes our governments make up story lines to help them achieve their objectives which is locked into a 70 year old plan for a New World Order with the US sitting on top with us as the pet poodle.

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And you were doing so well until that last line... The biggest problem with politicians is that they don't seem to give a toss about 70 years' time, only what will get them re-elected. You seriously think they are working to fulfil a plan for when they are dead ? ? ? Or do you think they are really lizards with 200 year lifespans?

symyjym said:

I don't think our governments really know what they are doing. We expect the world to abide by the UN but when the UN say don't go to Iraq, we go in anyway based on lies and deception. If the US and UK give the UN the middle finger there is not much chance of any other leader of the world taking any notice either. Bombing Gaddafi's convoy and Cameron celebrating his Youtube lynching only teaches terrorists that brutal killing is ok by western standards. I won't even go into the our war mongering and support for the Wahhabi's in Syria that led to hundreds of thousands of deaths and 6 year war.

But yes our governments make up story lines to help them achieve their objectives which is locked into a 70 year old plan for a New World Order with the US sitting on top with us as the pet poodle.

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It sure as fu*k stinks, and how we seem to be the only people on here who are in tune with all of this stinks even more. people need to wake the fu*k up.

Juan Albion said:

And you were doing so well until that last line... The biggest problem with politicians is that they don't seem to give a toss about 70 years' time, only what will get them re-elected. You seriously think they are working to fulfil a plan for when they are dead ? ? ? Or do you think they are really lizards with 200 year lifespans?

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No you are right they couldn't give a toss about the next seventy years but their masters of who they come to answer to could. do you believe nobody pulls their strings.

Juan Albion said:

And you were doing so well until that last line... The biggest problem with politicians is that they don't seem to give a toss about 70 years' time, only what will get them re-elected. You seriously think they are working to fulfil a plan for when they are dead ? ? ? Or do you think they are really lizards with 200 year lifespans?

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https://youtu.be/b7jgV0Vkp5c

brighton fella said:

No you are right they couldn't give a toss about the next seventy years but their masters of who they come to answer to could. do you believe nobody pulls their strings.

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The strings that are pulling them are their egos.

symyjym said:

https://youtu.be/b7jgV0Vkp5c

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That went waaaaay over your head, didn't it. Good grief, is that what you fell for?

Juan Albion said:

The strings that are pulling them are their egos.

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Yep righto

brighton fella said:

It sure as fu*k stinks, and how we seem to be the only people on here who are in tune with all of this stinks even more. people need to wake the fu*k up.

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You two are so gullible and incapable of applying logic to your conspiracy theory it's frightening.

edna krabappel said:

Going back to the actor/ bereaved father thing: I've knocked on somebody's door before to tell her that her son- aged eighteen, and an only child- had been killed in a car crash.

Her first reaction was to take a deep breath, then smile at me, walk into the lounge, and start doing her ironing, cool as you like.

Sudden and unexpected grief does all sorts of things to the human mind. There is no approved, textbook way to express it.

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Exactly.
When I was 11 or 12 one of my my classmates died after being knocked off of his bike and run over by a bus. It was a week or so before his birthday and they still wanted a birthday party for him.

They were not odd, they were traumatised.

Pevenseagull said:

Exactly.
When I was 11 or 12 one of my my classmates died after being knocked off of his bike and run over by a bus. It was a week or so before his birthday and they still wanted a birthday party for him.

They were not odd, they were traumatised.

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100%. On average, I meet with a newly-bereaved family every two weeks (rarely the same one, fortunately) and the reactions run the full gamut of emotions. But anyone gullible enough to fall for these ridiculous conspiracy theories wouldn't get that. And empathy isn't their strong suit either, or they wouldn't so totally disrespect the families who lost children that day.

brighton fella said:

Yep righto

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Oh yes, of course, I apologise, I forgot, you are one of the possessors of the special knowledge the rest of us aren't privy to.

brighton fella said:

Loved one quote particularly...Smart people believe weird things ...Rarely does anyone weigh facts before deciding what to believe, that can be applied to both sides.

I think

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Yes, it applies to us all, which is why critical thinking requires us to test our beliefs and understanding of evidence using scientific method. One useful tool is Occam's razor: http://skepdic.com/occam.html

There is a good line in this piece as well: "We know from experience that more often than not the theory that requires more complicated machinations is wrong."

Applied to this situation we can choose to believe the most simple explanation: The tragic murder of children by a disturbed individual happened and some who oppose gun control or mistrust the state, either deliberately or through confirmation bias, interpreted the events in a way that could nullify the emotive impact of mass child murder on the political question,

or the more complicated one: Obama faked it. At first glance this may sound the simpler option but believing it also requires an individual to believe that:

The president is machiavellian enough to arrange a massive hoax in order to support his gun control arguments. This is already a stretch given his indecisiveness last year when informed by his intelligence experts that Russia was interfering with the election;
That the president's illegal plan was supported by all around him. Not only everyone in his administration who was in on the plan, but also everybody involved through their jobs working for the state. People whose political views could not be assumed to be supportive of the president: that's civil servants, those working in emergency services, schools, the actors and directors. They all had to agree to the plan:
None of those thousands of people ever let the secret slip to their friends of family;
That everyone in the mainstream media was either fooled, or knew the plan and were happy to go along with it;
That everyone in the media who knew kept it secret, despite the fame, money, prizes and adulation that would have come their way had they uncovered this massive story;
They also didn't tell any friends or family;
That everyone is Newtown was also in on the secret and have kept silent, or if they were not in on the secret at no point since the events have told anyone that weirdly they didn't know any of these people who claim to have had children at Sandy Hook Elementary School, that nobody was related to them, or knew them socially.
That they also didn't tell any friends or family;
That everyone in the dozens of neighbouring communities were also in on the plan, or haven't bothered to mention that it was weird that they too didn't know anyone who was involved in the events. (Imagine this happening in a town in Sussex and think about how far the social networks of friends and family of those immediately affected would stretch).
That they also didn't tell any friends or family.

Without stretching the point further (you would have to consider the hospitals, the unions, the local authorities dealing with the bureaucracy that would surround such an incident, the split between state and federal authorities, the employers and colleagues of the families impacted) the number of people involved would stretch into the millions and would represent all walks of life and political viewpoints in America. and none of them could have said anything to their friends or family.

Now balance that all against 'this bloke, who had just gone through an unimaginably tragic event acted slightly odd for my liking,' and decide which is more likely to be true?

Having had discussions with conspiracy theorists before I am counting the minutes until one is along to say either 'but how do you explain......?', or to accuse me of also being in on the conspiracy (and of not saying anything to my friends or family).

Triggaaar said:

You two are so gullible and incapable of applying logic to your conspiracy theory it's frightening.

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Whats the point of applying logic to something when you are incapable of understanding anything,

Stato said:

Yes, it applies to us all, which is why critical thinking requires us to test our beliefs and understanding of evidence using scientific method. One useful tool is Occam's razor: http://skepdic.com/occam.html

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Well exactly, Occam's Razor may be nearly 1000 years old but it's a really useful tool to apply in just about any debate. The trouble is: logic or any form of critical thinking is not taught in schools so it's a bit hit and miss whether we can all think in this manner. Happily, about 95% of us do, but you get people like symyjym and brighton fella who incapable of applying rational thought ... which is why they come up with rambling nonsense: the simple application of Occam's Razor would show how nonsensical their thoughts are.

Let's imagine this happened at your local school, and your kids go there:
Either you lost a child, or your child was caught up in the most horrific day they'll ever have.
Assuming the latter, they will know children who died. You will too. Children who will never go back to the school, but will probably have siblings who do.
As life continues, you will see some bereaved parents collecting their remaining children at pick-up. It will be an unusual experience for years.
Regularly your children will talk of their lost friends, and what the school has talked about in their memory that month.

Now let's imagine it was fake, no one died:
You've got 450 children wondering what people are talking about, as none of them met any of the imaginary children that died. None of them witnessed a shooting at school, none of them saw a gunman or saw anyone being shot or dying.
You've got a similar number of parents who talk to each other, and none of them know of any parents that lost any children, and when they ask their children what happened their children haven't a clue what they're talking about.
Then you've got all the staff who know that nothing happened.

So that's about a thousand people who know nothing happened, so you've got to get them all in on this great scam.
And that's before we bring in any outsiders - all the police etc, all those actors that were told to walk around the school in circles to make it look like there were more of them.
This mass lie would make Watergate look like Chinese whispers at a camp fire.

Over a thousand ordinary citizens, including children, who have to keep going with a mad lie for the next 50+ years because some people want tighter gun laws.
Noting that many of those that would need to be involved in the cover-up would actually be against tighter gun laws.

Seriously, what the **** has to be wrong in your head to believe it's not real?

Gwylan said:

Well exactly, Occam's Razor may be nearly 1000 years old but it's a really useful tool to apply in just about any debate. The trouble is: logic or any form of critical thinking is not taught in schools so it's a bit hit and miss whether we can all think in this manner. Happily, about 95% of us do, but you get people like symyjym and brighton fella who incapable of applying rational thought ... which is why they come up with rambling nonsense: the simple application of Occam's Razor would show how nonsensical their thoughts are.

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So you are probably one of the fools who believed Blair and the media narrative spin for his war in Iraq too no doubt. This has nothing to do with Occam's Razor, it's about reading body language or not.

All patronising comments welcome.