Lorry crashes into Christmas Market Berlin.

The Merry Prankster · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
We might need to do both.

Without doubt as well as areas that have benefited from economic migration to this country, there are areas where public service provision has become far more difficult as a result of it. Even if the net result is an economic benefit for the country as a whole there are areas suffering. Some element of control on overall numbers or even the distribution of those that came here would help to ease this situation

A big mistake that David Cameron made was scrapping the 'migrant impact fund' a Brown policy that diverted resources to those areas disproportionately impacted by immigration and as they weren't ever Tory voting areas, it was an easy thing for them to scrap.

The thing I get so frustrated about with this debate is the inability of the major politcal parties to realise a) The right thing to do is somewhere in the middle b) You can't look at immigration with broad national brushstrokes, the effects of it are so locally nuanced that optimum polices for areas separated by only a couple of miles might be wildly different.

So yes, some elements of control (and not just on overall numbers) may well be useful but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't also a government policy/ funding issue here. For too long, for reason of political expediency on both sides this issue has been presented as a binary choice, it isn't.

One thing's for sure - the neo-liberal, free market, free movement, low tax argument does not stack up. It's why we're in this mess and people smelt that bullshit at the referendum.

Bang on.

mothy · Dec 21, 2016

Yoda said:
Back on to the main subject in question, Berlin police hunting a Tunisian man after finding ID doc in the truck.

Sounds like a set up. & back on subject. I thought tatouine was in star wars?

Psychobilly freakout · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
We might need to do both.

Without doubt as well as areas that have benefited from economic migration to this country, there are areas where public service provision has become far more difficult as a result of it. Even if the net result is an economic benefit for the country as a whole there are areas suffering. Some element of control on overall numbers or even the distribution of those that came here would help to ease this situation

A big mistake that David Cameron made was scrapping the 'migrant impact fund' a Brown policy that diverted resources to those areas disproportionately impacted by immigration and as they weren't ever Tory voting areas, it was an easy thing for them to scrap.

The thing I get so frustrated about with this debate is the inability of the major politcal parties to realise a) The right thing to do is somewhere in the middle b) You can't look at immigration with broad national brushstrokes, the effects of it are so locally nuanced that optimum polices for areas separated by only a couple of miles might be wildly different.

So yes, some elements of control (and not just on overall numbers) may well be useful but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't also a government policy/ funding issue here. For too long, for reason of political expediency on both sides this issue has been presented as a binary choice, it isn't.

One thing's for sure - the neo-liberal, free market, free movement, low tax argument does not stack up. It's why we're in this mess and people smelt that bullshit at the referendum.

Is the correct answer on this sideshow of a topic.

Yoda · Dec 21, 2016

mothy said:
Sounds like a set up. & back on subject. I thought tatouine was in star wars?

Why would it be a set up? Tunisia has had issues with ISIS and they are only next door to another stronghold in Libya and they did say they would try and get operatives on the boats crossing the med.

mothy · Dec 21, 2016

I don't mean that this isn't isis & it's a plot to blame them. What I mean is what dumb ass would leave their id in the truck.

Hang on that would likely be a fanatic who is proud of what they have done & wants to get caught / revel in their achievements. What a ****

mothy · Dec 21, 2016

Yoda said:
Why would it be a set up? Tunisia has had issues with ISIS and they are only next door to another stronghold in Libya and they did say they would try and get operatives on the boats crossing the med.

See my previous comment - forgot to quote you

spring hall convert · Dec 21, 2016

mothy said:
I don't mean that this isn't isis & it's a plot to blame them. What I mean is what dumb ass would leave their id in the truck.

Hang on that would likely be a fanatic who is proud of what they have done & wants to get caught / revel in their achievements. What a ****

Yeah the same as all those passports that were found in and around the Paris attacks. You could speculate anything regarding the motive for the document being there if you try hard enough. It's a lead at the moment, nothing more.

mothy · Dec 21, 2016

trueblue said:
mothy said:

With regards to your first paragraph. That is why we choose the school over the white middle class cofe school next door

/QUOTE]

That's good, though it makes it hard to understand why you're now complaining about it.

Click to expand...

My point is. I don't mind some immigration. I like different cultures & people in general. My concern is that when my son goes to school (he doesn't see this at all which is how it should be) but he is close to becoming a minority in the class room by being white British. Something tells me that there is something wrong - particularly when you consider that hove isn't really that diverse..

Or are we expected nationally to become minorities in our own communities & that's the future (like the east end has, parts of brim, Leicester, Blackburn etc)

Neville's Breakfast · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
We might need to do both.

Without doubt as well as areas that have benefited from economic migration to this country, there are areas where public service provision has become far more difficult as a result of it. Even if the net result is an economic benefit for the country as a whole there are areas suffering. Some element of control on overall numbers or even the distribution of those that came here would help to ease this situation

A big mistake that David Cameron made was scrapping the 'migrant impact fund' a Brown policy that diverted resources to those areas disproportionately impacted by immigration and as they weren't ever Tory voting areas, it was an easy thing for them to scrap.

The thing I get so frustrated about with this debate is the inability of the major politcal parties to realise a) The right thing to do is somewhere in the middle b) You can't look at immigration with broad national brushstrokes, the effects of it are so locally nuanced that optimum polices for areas separated by only a couple of miles might be wildly different.

So yes, some elements of control (and not just on overall numbers) may well be useful but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't also a government policy/ funding issue here. For too long, for reason of political expediency on both sides this issue has been presented as a binary choice, it isn't.

One thing's for sure - the neo-liberal, free market, free movement, low tax argument does not stack up. It's why we're in this mess and people smelt that bullshit at the referendum.

Agreed, this certainly seems like a rejection of neo liberalism. That philosophy has attracted people from the right who like the economics and people from the left who like the politics and are prepared to ignore the economics. There has been an unspoken alliance between capitalists seeking low cost markets/labour and liberals espousing individual rights over community rights.

spring hall convert · Dec 21, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
Agreed, this certainly seems like a rejection of neo liberalism. That philosophy has attracted people from the right who like the economics and people from the left who like the politics and are prepared to ignore the economics. There has been an unspoken alliance between capitalists seeking low cost markets/labour and liberals espousing individual rights over community rights.

Sure. It was a long time coming. Your last sentence is a really excellent way of putting it.

The $64,000 question, is what will replace it? And will that be any better?

And that's all for another time, another thread.

JC Footy Genius · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
We might need to do both.

Without doubt as well as areas that have benefited from economic migration to this country, there are areas where public service provision has become far more difficult as a result of it. Even if the net result is an economic benefit for the country as a whole there are areas suffering. Some element of control on overall numbers or even the distribution of those that came here would help to ease this situation

A big mistake that David Cameron made was scrapping the 'migrant impact fund' a Brown policy that diverted resources to those areas disproportionately impacted by immigration and as they weren't ever Tory voting areas, it was an easy thing for them to scrap.

The thing I get so frustrated about with this debate is the inability of the major politcal parties to realise a) The right thing to do is somewhere in the middle b) You can't look at immigration with broad national brushstrokes, the effects of it are so locally nuanced that optimum polices for areas separated by only a couple of miles might be wildly different.

So yes, some elements of control (and not just on overall numbers) may well be useful but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't also a government policy/ funding issue here. For too long, for reason of political expediency on both sides this issue has been presented as a binary choice, it isn't.

One thing's for sure - the neo-liberal, free market, free movement, low tax argument does not stack up. It's why we're in this mess and people smelt that bullshit at the referendum.

Looks like they are going to re introduce it asap. I thought Peterborough, Boston, South Holland etc which have experienced some of the highest levels of immigration were all Tory voting areas though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nt-impact-fund-cash-launch-date-a7377511.html

Buzzer · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
One thing's for sure - the neo-liberal, free market, free movement, low tax argument does not stack up. It's why we're in this mess and people smelt that bullshit at the referendum.

I think generally, the veracity of the rest of your comments are true but I think that anyone who claims that the Brexit referendum was in any way a vote against low taxes or neo-liberalism is deluding themselves. I also disagree that we're in this mess because of neo-liberalism which is a very woolly, catch-all term itself. There isn't any single cause of this current crisis with Islamic terrorism and the crisis even has a multitude of different problems lying within it.

One thing's for sure though. The people in charge who helped create this mess are now demanding that the public reject the wave of populism and hand power back to them with a certainty, delusion and arrogance that Alan Pardew would be proud of.

spring hall convert · Dec 21, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Looks like they are going to re introduce it asap. I thought Peterborough, Boston, South Holland etc which have experienced some of the highest levels of immigration were all Tory voting areas though.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nt-impact-fund-cash-launch-date-a7377511.html

Not wishing to poo-poo it but £140m seems a little light. It's less than two Pogba's!

Psychobilly freakout · Dec 21, 2016

German police are searching for a Tunisian over Monday's Berlin Christmas market attack, media reports say.

According to a temporary-stay permit found in the cab of the lorry that ploughed into crowds, the man, named as Anis A, was born in 1992 in the city of Tataouine, the reports say.
A police operation is said to be under way in the state of North Rhine-Westphalia where the permit was issued.
Reports say the suspect may have been injured in a struggle with the driver.
According to the newspapers Allgemeine Zeitung and Bild, the Tunisian suspect is aged 21 or 23 and is also known to use false names.
He applied for asylum in April and was given a temporary residence permit, the Sueddeutsche Zeitung said

carlzeiss · Dec 21, 2016

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/745969/Berlin-Christmas-terror-attack-police-hunt-Tunisian-man

spring hall convert · Dec 21, 2016

Buzzer said:
I think generally, the veracity of the rest of your comments are true but I think that anyone who claims that the Brexit referendum was in any way a vote against low taxes or neo-liberalism is deluding themselves. I also disagree that we're in this mess because of neo-liberalism which is a very woolly term . There isn't any single cause of this current crisis with Islamic terrorism and the crisis even has a multitude of different problems lying within it.

One thing's for sure though. The people in charge who helped create this mess are now demanding that the public reject the wave of populism and hand power back to them with a certainty, delusion and arrogance that Alan Pardew would be proud of.

Not a vote against low taxes. A vote against unfunded, open border migration. For many people. It wasn't that hard to see the flaws in the Cameron argument and that's coming from someone who voted to remain. I don't believe that people voted to have higher taxes but I do believe that they understand you can't have low tax, good public services and uncontrolled migration. Of course, the point of least resistance is to talk tough on migration but longer term we need an honest assessment of what public service provision looks like going forward if we continue to cut. Whichever way you look at it, much of the discourse prompting the remain stance, came from a neo-liberal viewpoint. Similarly, the American election seems to have rejected pretty much everything the neo-liberals stand for. Whether Trump will actually deviate too far from that path remains to be seen.

Your last sentence is on the money though. Global centrists need to come up with a workable narrative and quick as understandable distrust is pushing people left and right to the extremes and I can't see that ending well. But this is where the [MENTION=31796]alfredmizen[/MENTION] position comes in, if those in power don't see or don't believe the position that some have been put in by recent political orthodoxy (call it what you will...) then how the hell can they succeed in doing something about it, even if you believe they are well intentioned.

El Presidente · Dec 21, 2016

Yoda said:
Back on to the main subject in question.

Absolutely. It's a tragedy that so many people have died in this obscene terrorist attack and I'm sure all our thoughts and sympathies are currently with the bereaved.

JC Footy Genius · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
Not wishing to poo-poo it but £140m seems a little light. It's less than two Pogba's!

Poo - poo away. It certainly does seem light considering the rate and size of net immigration over the last decade. Plus of course the current and likely future (Up to 2020) rate.

Is it perhaps an unquantifiable cost that isn't taken into account when assessing the net economic benefits of immigration.

spring hall convert · Dec 21, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Is it perhaps an unquantifiable cost that isn't taken into account when assessing the net economic benefits of immigration.

I don't even think that's a sum that can be worked out with any level of authority. I believe there's a net economic benefit but again, like much of the discourse on both sides of this debate it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the level of detail one needs to make a judgment on the success or otherwise of migration.

Deleted member 22389 · Dec 21, 2016

spring hall convert said:
I don't even think that's a sum that can be worked out with any level of authority. I believe there's a net economic benefit but again, like much of the discourse on both sides of this debate it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the level of detail one needs to make a judgment on the success or otherwise of migration.

Immigration can work if the people coming here intergrate properly. What doesn't work is what I noticed whilst living in Luton, some arrive and just continue where they left off, no progression, and so you end up feeling like your living in a different country and it feels like your being dragged backwards. Some parts of that town have completely changed, even the flyers coming through our door before we left advertised religious only events. It's something that has happened down here yet, but I'm sure if it did opinion would change.

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