[Politics] Brexit

lawros left foot · Jun 22, 2016

So, has anyone in the the Outers campaign come forward, and told us with any certainty what is going to definitely happen if we leave?
As far as I can tell, it's been all very vague, we will get trade deals, we don't know when, or even who with. We might cut immigration, but there again we may not be able too, we might be heading for a short recession , but, it won't be a long one, perhaps, at least we' ll be able to make our own laws, except if we stay in the single market, we won't. We haven't decided if we will stay in the single market, even if the EU let us, which they might not.

Not one thing promised by the leavers, is a certainty, and, for me that's not enough to stake our future as a vibrant, successful nation

heathgate · Jun 22, 2016

JCL666 said:
Totally misleading.

They are voted in/approved by the European Parliament. Which is actually more democratic than our own PM appointing non parliamentary members of the cabinet (which is effectively what the European Commission is).

No they are not.... they are assessed for suitability as a whole... get that... as an entity... and the Parliament can only object to the whole of new appointees... not to individuals... they have to present a case to justify the rejection of the entire commission.....it never ever happens.

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5ways · Jun 22, 2016

lawros left foot said:
So, has anyone in the the Outers campaign come forward, and told us with any certainty what is going to definitely happen if we leave?
As far as I can tell, it's been all very vague, we will get trade deals, we don't know when, or even who with. We might cut immigration, but there again we may not be able too, we might be heading for a short recession , but, it won't be a long one, perhaps, at least we' ll be able to make our own laws, except if we stay in the single market, we won't. We haven't decided if we will stay in the single market, even if the EU let us, which they might not.

Not one thing promised by the leavers, is a certainty, and, for me that's not enough to stake our future as a vibrant, successful nation

All we know is Boris will come talk to us live on TV and apologise for the mess he has made. They never offered a plan, they never picked a model.

Jim in the West · Jun 22, 2016

East Preston Gull said:
The German CBI has said it would be foolish not to offer free trade with Britain if it votes to Leave. Job done, game over, vote Leave.

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Surely a Brexiteer should be minded to heed the words of the British CBI, rather than the German version? Or is ok to be an "expert" if you agree with Vote Leave, but not if you're in favour of Remain....?

lawros left foot · Jun 22, 2016

East Preston Gull said:
The German CBI has said it would be foolish not to offer free trade with Britain if it votes to Leave. Job done, game over, vote Leave.

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Have the Germans offered us a free trade deal if we leave, then?

No, I didn't think so, it's all a bit vague, isn't it?

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 22, 2016

heathgate said:
No they are not.... they are assessed for suitability as a whole... get that... as an entity... and the Parliament can only object to the whole of new appointees... not to individuals... they have to present a case to justify the rejection of the entire commission.....it never ever happens.

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Nonsense. Take some time out and read up on the commission.

Stato · Jun 22, 2016

Stato said:
I find it depressing that very few people seem to have asked How can Britain best contribute? What would be the best decision for the rest of the EU and the rest of the world? Even if one or other option may be viewed as preferable for our country, do we have a responsibility to act for the greater good of others?

Further to my complaint, it would seem that, with a day to go, someone has finally pointed out that the UK may have some responsibility to put aside arguments about self interest and to act for the good of all:

"Mass migration and the refugee crisis is one of the biggest problems facing the world. In this country we assume that everyone just wants to come to the UK – but it’s an issue in Germany, Greece, Sweden, all across the EU. Why should we be the first to turn our backs on the problem? We have to think not only about what would happen to those unfortunate people, but to the rest of the planet too. What kind of example would we be setting? We should be the first to help disadvantaged people. What would happen if other countries decided to follow our example?

Britain has always told the world that being British is about the humanity, compassion and moral fortitude that we have. All great things that we are supposed to have spread across the world. A leave vote now says that we don’t really care about anyone else, we don’t care what happens to the European Union. Why should the Germans be able to show more compassion than we do?"

I never guessed it would be John Barnes. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/22/john-barnes-gove-says-voting-leave-wrong

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 22, 2016

lawros left foot said:
Have the Germans offered us a free trade deal if we leave, then?

No, I didn't think so, it's all a bit vague, isn't it?

The full article states a lot more. I guess there's a reason why he left that bit out.

Hamilton · Jun 22, 2016

East Preston Gull said:
The German CBI has said it would be foolish not to offer free trade with Britain if it votes to Leave. Job done, game over, vote Leave.

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You are quoting Marcus Kerber. Unfortunately, as Marcus is not an elected german representative he'll have very little say over the decisions that the EU nor the German Government take. They'll be influenced and actioned by the elected EU and German politicians.

This is what Marcus has said..

“Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries – or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other – would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st century. The BDI would urge politicians on both sides to come up with a trade regime that enables us to uphold and maintain the levels of trade we have”

Of course, we can help Marcus - and ourselves - by just voting Remain.

Here is what the BDI, which is the organisation Marcus represents, says about the EU:

"The European Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) is an outstanding example of successful European integration. Since 1999, as many as 19 countries have been sharing the Euro and benefiting from a stable, internationally significant currency. The elimination of foreign exchange costs and exchange rate fluctuations invigorated trade within the EMU and brought considerable savings for businesses and individuals."

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 22, 2016

Hamilton said:
You have voted for your representative. You do so in the UK General Election every circa 4 years. The elected government then appoints their Commissioner.

Here is another important person whom we don't elect and yet who has the power to set interest rates that can have a dramatic impact on our finances.

Just because we don't like the way a democratic process works, it doesn't mean it is unfair.

Immigrant as well.

Eeyore · Jun 22, 2016

This little beauty is doing the rounds at the moment. I can hear even the most intransigent of Brexiteers saying "Well....actually"

JCL666 · Jun 22, 2016

heathgate said:
No they are not.... they are assessed for suitability as a whole... get that... as an entity... and the Parliament can only object to the whole of new appointees... not to individuals... they have to present a case to justify the rejection of the entire commission.....it never ever happens.

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They are assessed and VOTED in as a whole.

They don't have to present a case, they can just vote, but (like most votes) they present a case in order to convince other members to vote with them.

You're right though that it hasn't happened.

Herr Tubthumper · Jun 22, 2016

So, one day to go and all the Brexiteers can muster is a months old fib about the powers of the commission. Good work

East Preston Gull · Jun 22, 2016

Jim in the West said:
Surely a Brexiteer should be minded to heed the words of the British CBI, rather than the German version? Or is ok to be an "expert" if you agree with Vote Leave, but not if you're in favour of Remain....?

The British CBI have been a joke and wrong on all aspects of policy for 100 years they are wrong now and were wrong in their previous incarnations. They were still trying to do deals with Hitler ( yes him again) as the tanks were rolling into Poland.

The German CBI funds itself and has the interest of its members at heart. They want and need to trade with Britain even if we leave.
Vote Leave, still buy a BMW!

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5ways · Jun 22, 2016

East Preston Gull said:
The British CBI have been a joke and wrong on all aspects of policy for 100 years they are wrong now and were wrong in their previous incarnations. They were still trying to do deals with Hitler ( yes him again) as the tanks were rolling into Poland.

The German CBI funds itself and has the interest of its members at heart. They want and need to trade with Britain even if we leave.
Vote Leave, still buy a BMW!

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Listen to yourself :facepalm:

heathgate · Jun 22, 2016

East Preston Gull said:
The German CBI has said it would be foolish not to offer free trade with Britain if it votes to Leave. Job done, game over, vote Leave.

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Exactly ..... the Germans sell more than 1 million cars a year to the UK market... why would they jeopardise that huge market?... apart from the many other products they want us to us from them...

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JC Footy Genius · Jun 22, 2016

5ways said:
I am thinking about the next generation too. We the 5th biggest economy in terms of total assets but in terms of actual economic activity we are a smaller economy than India or Indonesia. Both gigantic countries. The rest of the world is playing catch-up with us, very quickly. When I was born the UK economy dwarfed the Chinese economy - which is really insane when you think about it. When I think about the future of the UK it will slowly and naturally become less powerful internationally as other economies of demographic scale get larger. How do we preserve a Western way of life without Western economic dominance? For me you do this by writing the rules and getting advantageous free trade deals. The EU, US, and China can look at each other as equals. I want to be at the top table.

It is not about talking down the UK it is about being rational about how to best act in the national interest. That is working in concert with other like-minded states in a rapidly changing world. It is not a bed of roses but we have to fight for every scrap of influence we can.

Yes you can redefine terms to diminish our status.

That's conflating western economic dominance with EU membership which is rather an odd line of argument ... as we know the Eurozone crisis is undermining western European economic performance. The project at the heart of the EU is the very thing most likely to threaten economic stability and long term western dominance.

By being at the top table you mean having our voice diluted to consider 27 other countries views, waiting for uninimity before we can even start negotiations and belonging to an organisation with an inbuilt Eurozone majority that can take the EU in any direction they wish (ever closer union) ... while sidelining our second tier membership views.

Hamilton · Jun 22, 2016

East Preston Gull said:
The British CBI have been a joke and wrong on all aspects of policy for 100 years they are wrong now and were wrong in their previous incarnations. They were still trying to do deals with Hitler ( yes him again) as the tanks were rolling into Poland.

The German CBI funds itself and has the interest of its members at heart. They want and need to trade with Britain even if we leave.
Vote Leave, still buy a BMW!

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

The German CBI supports the idea of the EU. Visit their site and see for yourself. They would like us to REMAIN in the EU.

Two Professors · Jun 22, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
You probably know this anyway but the 'Great' in 'Great Britain' does not have a political origin - it is simply a reference to the largest (or 'greatest') of the British Isles.

(And before you go off on another of your 'You're a Remainer so you must be unpatriotic' rumbles can I just add that I do think Britain is pretty great. But that's not why it's called Great Britain.)

It actually dates back to Roman times-Brittania Major and Brittania Minor were respectively England and Wales,and Brittany.I only rumble to wind people up,but sssshhhhhh,don't tell anybody!

Hamilton · Jun 22, 2016

JC Footy Genius said:
Yes you can redefine terms to diminish our status.

That's conflating western economic dominance with EU membership which is rather an odd line of argument ... as we know the Eurozone crisis is undermining western European economic performance. The project at the heart of the EU is the very thing most likely to threaten economic stability and long term western dominance.

By being at the top table you mean having our voice diluted to consider 27 other countries views, waiting for uninimity before we can even start negotiations and belonging to an organisation with an inbuilt Eurozone majority that can take the EU in any direction they wish (ever closer union) ... while sidelining our second tier membership views.

If we leave, we will not be the 5th largest economy in the world.

It is true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.

We have a choice tomorrow. Retain economic strength and then get our elected MPs to focus on the things that matter - low skills, low social mobility, low investment.

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