[Brighton] Valley Gardens works

Stoichkov · Sep 26, 2018

Jack Straw said:
Parks and Gardens aren't considered essential and hence became the "Cinderella" of Council Services many years ago now.

Indeed. Local authorities do not have a statutory duty to provide and maintain parks and, in this local government financial climate, they're unfortunately seen as quick route to a budget saving. It's amazing really to see decades of work undone in a only a few years. I'm sure we'll never see 'civic' style displays of flowers again (maybe we don't need them?) but I wonder when we'll reach the 'bottom'?

Preston Park is another example - the state of the area around the Tennis Courts and old bowling greens (again, maybe we don't need them?) is a shocker. Clearly the remaining Parks staff are up against it in terms of what they can achieve on reduced staffing and budget - they can only do so much. It must be pretty demoralizing for Parks staff reduced - in many cases - simply to litter picking and grass cutting.

How long before we start to see Parks increasingly turned over the private sector or a 'pay to play' model?

Parks are definitely one of those standard-of-living things that are easy to take for granted until they're gone

Jack Straw · Sep 26, 2018

Stoichkov said:
Indeed. Local authorities do not have a statutory duty to provide and maintain parks and, in this local government financial climate, they're unfortunately seen as quick route to a budget saving. It's amazing really to see decades of work undone in a only a few years. I'm sure we'll never see 'civic' style displays of flowers again (maybe we don't need them?) but I wonder when we'll reach the 'bottom'?

Preston Park is another example - the state of the area around the Tennis Courts and old bowling greens (again, maybe we don't need them?) is a shocker. Clearly the remaining Parks staff are up against it in terms of what they can achieve on reduced staffing and budget - they can only do so much. It must be pretty demoralizing for Parks staff reduced - in many cases - simply to litter picking and grass cutting.

How long before we start to see Parks increasingly turned over the private sector or a 'pay to play' model?

Parks are definitely one of those standard-of-living things that are easy to take for granted until they're gone

Spot-on. Sums up the reasons why I took early retirement from my position with the Parks. There's a few gems left, notably Kipling Gardens in Rottingdean, the Level and Jevs' Preston Rock Garden. Otherwise, the formal areas are all very poor.
There is some wonderful downland management going on throughout Brighton and Hove, but this goes unnoticed due to the nature (excuse the pun), of how these sites look. Roedean Old 9-hole site and Saltdean Oval are two such sites. As with the fore-mentioned gardens, these areas benefit by having a fanatic involved who really cares about what they manage.

Dick Knights Mumm · Sep 26, 2018

Stoichkov;8614601(maybe we don't need them?)[/QUOTE said:
We do. That's the problem. Spirits need to be lifted. I love going places and seeing a bit of civic pride.

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Dick Knights Mumm said:
We do. That's the problem. Spirits need to be lifted. I love going places and seeing a bit of civic pride.

I'd say the bowling greens are a triumph. Wild flower seed bombs are planted, and the riot of colour - not to mention the clear and evident benefit to wildlife - which comes up during the Spring and Summer is wonderful.

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Wardy's twin said:
I don't doubt it. I suspect the huge student population helps with this.

Students - especially first year students at the Universities - will use the likes of the 24, 25, 48, 49 and the Lemon Buses etc. No more disproportionately than in any other University town or city.

Wardy's twin said:
i don't disagree with using buses indeed the opposite I think in a 'green world' public transport is the way forward but it needs to be properly supported by the council. If I were on the number 1 bus route I would be happy , buses to Woodingdean though are very poor and have got worse over the years , I have lived for 50+ years and remember 4 different buses which had different routes e.g. you could get to Hollingdean via a no6 (or 48) and the 53 or 54. No need to go anywhere near centre of the town.

No sure what you mean by 'properly supported by the council'. The city council and buses company work very closely together. If you're talking about re-instating old routes, you'd have to say 'properly supported by the bus company'. They will not put on a route which hardly anyone uses. Depending on where in Hollingdean you want to go, you can get the 26, 46, 50, 56 or any of the routes along Lewes Road. Woodingdean is served by six buses an hour.

In order for a quietly used service to be run, someone else, other than the bus company would have to pay for it, and if you mean the council, that's not going to happen.

The No. 56 is an example - Hollingbury to the city centre via routes not taken by other buses. However, they couldn't make it work to their financial plan, and so it's now run by Lemon Buses, having previously been run by Compass.

wellquickwoody · Sep 26, 2018

Stat Brother said:
What's the point of spending on the gardens when they are all but inaccessible, and in an area of outstanding noise and air pollution?

But you are talking twaddle as you very well know. Multiple crossing points all around Valley Gardens but that does not fit your cycling Nazi state now does it?

Seasidesage · Sep 26, 2018

I have absolutely no interest in gardens, flowers etc. But the fact remains many do and they do indeed influence many peoples view of our city. The photos above show illistrate our civic pride is being lost and shocked me as to how different they made the area look compared to the mess it is today. My memory is playing tricks as I didn't recall any of that until I saw those photos and thank you for posting them.

As to the roadworks. Making it as difficult as possible for cars to enter the town is not going to encourage visitors. A practical and accessible park and ride might, as would a mass transit system. Buses have a role to play but are not the whole answer. The council will never make a serious dent in the traffic issues in this town until they bite the bullet on a mass transit system.

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Seasidesage said:
As to the roadworks. Making it as difficult as possible for cars to enter the town is not going to encourage visitors. A practical and accessible park and ride might, as would a mass transit system. Buses have a role to play but are not the whole answer. The council will never make a serious dent in the traffic issues in this town until they bite the bullet on a mass transit system.

Well, if you can come up with a workable solution, we'd love to hear it, especially with the Park & Ride.

And what is a 'mass transport system'...?

Stat Brother · Sep 26, 2018

Seasidesage said:
I have absolutely no interest in gardens, flowers etc. But the fact remains many do and they do indeed influence many peoples view of our city. The photos above show illistrate our civic pride is being lost and shocked me as to how different they made the area look compared to the mess it is today. My memory is playing tricks as I didn't recall any of that until I saw those photos and thank you for posting them.

As to the roadworks. Making it as difficult as possible for cars to enter the town is not going to encourage visitors. A practical and accessible park and ride might, as would a mass transit system. Buses have a role to play but are not the whole answer. The council will never make a serious dent in the traffic issues in this town until they bite the bullet on a mass transit system.

I also have no interest and in all things horticultural, but by jiminy, I'd miss if it we're gone.

My village is a big hitter in the '... In Bloom' competition, previously winning the European version out right, and the place looks fantastic.

Seasidesage · Sep 26, 2018

The Large One said:
Well, if you can come up with a workable solution, we'd love to hear it, especially with the Park & Ride.

And what is a 'mass transport system'...?

A mass transport system is one that carries more than 50 people like say a Bus? You know like an underground train or monorail? Something that might actually have an impact? Both are horrendous expensive options, but Newcastle managed to build one in living memory. Only something of that scale is going to work. Cycle/Bus lanes etc while they have their place are not going to solve the problem and you know it.

If and when I become a transport consultant and government funding expert I'll be sure to let you know first. Till then try to stop being so arsey...

Gwylan · Sep 26, 2018

Seasidesage said:
A mass transport system is one that carries more than 50 people like say a Bus? You know like an underground train or monorail? Something that might actually have an impact? Both are horrendous expensive options, but Newcastle managed to build one in living memory. .

Horrendous? Newcastle's cost £800m (in current prices). Assuming a 30-year return on investment and 3% interest, a back of the envelope calculation suggests it will cost each person in B&H an addition £2,500 a year in council tax (assuming no money from the government, which is pretty likely to be the case). In addition, a B&H metro would certainly cost more than that because the T&W system mainly used existing railway track - which we haven't got - and Newcastle is pretty flat - which we're not.

If you think that the average Brightonian will be happy to cough up £250 to £300 extra in council tax every month, you're totally bonkers.

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Seasidesage said:
A mass transport system is one that carries more than 50 people like say a Bus? You know like an underground train or monorail? Something that might actually have an impact? Both are horrendous expensive options, but Newcastle managed to build one in living memory. Only something of that scale is going to work. Cycle/Bus lanes etc while they have their place are not going to solve the problem and you know it.

If and when I become a transport consultant and government funding expert I'll be sure to let you know first. Till then try to stop being so arsey...

Goodness me you're sensitive. It was a perfectly straightforward challenge / question. Mind you, I'm not sure I've ever said you could speak for me (e.g. - when you tell me about how cylce and bus lanes aren't going to solve the problem 'and I know it'). Do I? Thanks for that. I now know something I didn't know which apparently I did. *

I was going to politely answer your snotty reply...

Gwylan said:
Horrendous? Newcastle's cost £800m (in current prices). Assuming a 30-year return on investment and 3% interest, a back of the envelope calculation suggests it will cost each person in B&H an addition £2,500 a year in council tax (assuming no money from the government, which is pretty likely to be the case). In addition, a B&H metro would certainly cost more than that because the T&W system mainly used existing railway track - which we haven't got - and Newcastle is pretty flat - which we're not.

If you think that the average Brightonian will be happy to cough up £250 to £300 extra in council tax every month, you're totally bonkers.

... but Gwylan has done it for me - undergrounds and monorails simply won't work.

So... can you come up with a workable solution? Cheers.

* Yes, that reply was arsey.

Stoichkov · Sep 26, 2018

The Large One said:
I'd say the bowling greens are a triumph. Wild flower seed bombs are planted, and the riot of colour - not to mention the clear and evident benefit to wildlife - which comes up during the Spring and Summer is wonderful.

They do look nice but use of 'wild flowers' is often just a mask for a amenity cut. It's cheap.

They were first used to hide litter on central reservations.

Whilst Bowls is popular with only a pretty small demographic and the greens are very expensive to maintain - they are at least a 'sports facility' which - in the majority of cases - have now been lost. There are a couple of example of bowls greens becoming alternative recreational spaces but the majority are just fallow, empty ground

Wildflowers have their place but they don't need to planted at the expense of sports facilities. Also - for 11 months of the year they look like wasteground albeit the 12th month is glorious!

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Stoichkov said:
They do look nice but use of 'wild flowers' is often just a mask for a amenity cut. It's cheap.

They were first used to hide litter on central reservations.

Whilst Bowls is popular with only a pretty small demographic and the greens are very expensive to maintain - they are at least a 'sports facility' which - in the majority of cases - have now been lost. There are a couple of example of bowls greens becoming alternative recreational spaces but the majority are just fallow, empty ground

Wildflowers have their place but they don't need to planted at the expense of sports facilities. Also - for 11 months of the year they look like wasteground albeit the 12th month is glorious!

I think it's good that it's cheap especially if it's effective.

There simply aren't the people playing bowls to make the maintenance of them worthwhile. You say it's a lost 'sports facility', but how can it be if no-one plays the sport?

I'd suggest it's another recreational / open opportunity for eduation, ecology and mental well-being.

Westdene Wonder · Sep 26, 2018

Stat Brother said:
I totally agree.
My last trip to Brighton by car was horrible, and I can't think of many that are enjoyable, so something has to give.

The slightly better experience was by train, but that isn't really welcoming either.

Then of course you have the delightful sight of street sleepers, i would recommend alighting at Preston Park however fewer trains are stopping there now

Seasidesage · Sep 26, 2018

The Large One said:
Goodness me you're sensitive. It was a perfectly straightforward challenge / question. Mind you, I'm not sure I've ever said you could speak for me (e.g. - when you tell me about how cylce and bus lanes aren't going to solve the problem 'and I know it'). Do I? Thanks for that. I now know something I didn't know which apparently I did. *

I was going to politely answer your snotty reply...

... but Gwylan has done it for me - undergrounds and monorails simply won't work.

So... can you come up with a workable solution? Cheers.

* Yes, that reply was arsey.

Why would I want to come back to you with anything? Who are you? Did I say it was cost effective or even affordable? No. I said the cost would be horrendous.. What I did say was getting a few people to ride bikes won't solve the problem on its own. If you don't think that you are either an idiot or more likely a patronising prat. Cycling is fine, buses are fine but neither are the answer. Keep trotting out the bollocks though

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Seasidesage said:
Why would I want to come back to you with anything? Who are you?

Oh dear, you are a angry chap.

Seasidesage said:
Did I say it was cost effective or even affordable? No. I said the cost would be horrendous.. What I did say was getting a few people to ride bikes won't solve the problem on its own.

But thanks for keeping on telling us what isn't the answer.

Seasidesage said:
If you don't think that you are either an idiot or more likely a patronising prat. Cycling is fine, buses are fine but neither are the answer. Keep trotting out the bollocks though

Oh, still being angry.

You may need to point out where I said that was the answer. In fact, I haven't offered a workable solution, nor indeed, any kind of solution. I merely asked if you could, and someone else pointed out you couldn't. So I'll take your answer as a 'no'. But thanks, anyway.

Seasidesage · Sep 26, 2018

Gwylan said:
Horrendous? Newcastle's cost £800m (in current prices). Assuming a 30-year return on investment and 3% interest, a back of the envelope calculation suggests it will cost each person in B&H an addition £2,500 a year in council tax (assuming no money from the government, which is pretty likely to be the case). In addition, a B&H metro would certainly cost more than that because the T&W system mainly used existing railway track - which we haven't got - and Newcastle is pretty flat - which we're not.

If you think that the average Brightonian will be happy to cough up £250 to £300 extra in council tax every month, you're totally bonkers.

Dare say you are right. That's what horrendous means. I cannot see any way it happens, but equally I cannot see a truly workable solution without one. Flying cars maybe? It;s likely to remain shite for the rest of my life and no amount of cycle/bus lanes is likely to change that unfortunately.

Seasidesage · Sep 26, 2018

The Large One said:
Oh dear, you are a angry chap.

But thanks for keeping on telling us what isn't the answer.

Oh, still being angry.

You may need to point out where I said that was the answer. In fact, I haven't offered a solution. I merely asked if you could. I'll take your answer as a 'no'. Thanks, anyway.

I bet you have lots of friends. What a pompus nob you really are. I'm not angry, well not with anyone else I just think you are a rude ****.

The Large One · Sep 26, 2018

Seasidesage said:
I bet you have lots of friends.

Oh, how very pompous of you, dahling. *Turns way in dismay*

Seasidesage said:
What a pompus nob you really are. I'm not angry, well not with anyone else I just think you are a rude ****.

Of course you're not angry, my sweet. Or rude... :kiss:

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