Jeremy Corbyn.

Gwylan · Jul 29, 2015

Seagull27 said:
I wholeheartedly disagree, and it is this that is what I think is the biggest problem the Labour party has at the moment. The job of a political party is to represent a set of moral and political values that are held by its members and voters. If it proves that one of those policies isn't held by the majority of the public, they shouldn't abandon that policy (providing its members still support it) - they should be doing their best to persuade the rest of the public to what they see as the correct view.

If you cast your mind back 40 years, there was a feeling that Thatcher's views were a bit extreme for the electorate and the party had made a mistake in not voting in that nice moderate Willie Whitelaw. Thatcher set about persuading people her views were right and - whether you agree with her not - she didn't leave anyone in any doubt as where she stood.

Corbyn could have the same effect, who knows. I just think this idea of governing by focus groups and soundbites has had its day

soistes · Jul 29, 2015

Seagull27 said:
I wholeheartedly disagree, and it is this that is what I think is the biggest problem the Labour party has at the moment. The job of a political party is to represent a set of moral and political values that are held by its members and voters. If it proves that one of those policies isn't held by the majority of the public, they shouldn't abandon that policy (providing its members still support it) - they should be doing their best to persuade the rest of the public to what they see as the correct view. Even if it means they don't get elected into Government, they should still stick by the values they (and their members/voters) believe in and fight for them.

Otherwise you end up with two parties that are fighting for the same voters using similar policies. When one of those parties isn't trusted due to previous (perceived) mistakes, then of course the other will be elected.

I agree with this, and will vote for Corbyn because of it. I also don't expect to see another Labour majority government in my lifetime (I'm 60). There is not likely during that period to be a majority of the population (certainly now that Scotland has been lost to the SNP) who hold the same kind of views that I hold, but I still want to be able to vote for a party that represents those views, and will uphold them consistently in parliament, rather than bending with the wind of mass popular opinion under media influence. Also, given that it still seems to be the case that there is still a non-Conservative majority (even in England), I think that with a Labour party of the kind I describe, over time the chances will increase of the more 'progressive' (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) parties - Labour, Greens, possibly LibDems and nationalists too - recognising this and perhaps even agreeing not to stand against each other in seats where there's a chance of beating a Tory, and being prepared to work together in a left-of-centre coalition (with each representing the views of their own particular constituency). This would be much better, in my view, than a world in which a wimpish 'new Labour' type party ploughs ahead on its own and continues to fail both in representing the views of the left and in getting elected to government, the result being semi-permanent Tory hegemony.

Steve.S · Jul 29, 2015

I think that the political parties underestimate the level of discontent amongst the voting population. People are not voting and of those that do vote are looking at other parties. I think Corbyn is the right man at the right time, it's time for a change in politics

Seagull27 · Jul 29, 2015

beorhthelm said:
this boils down to: political party must represent views... if a policy isn't supported by a majority, it should persuade them its right. i cant tell if this is contradiction, self-righteousness, or both. this is all well and good, very nice to have highbrow, theoretical politics, if you want to govern and actually implement some policy for those you represent, then you must gain power.

though it has been interesting seeing this view bubble upto the surface, its seems a lot on the left genuinely would rather hold ideals than power. I'd rather a mix.

I guess what I mean is that just because a certain view isn't held by a majority, it doesn't mean that a party should abandon that view altogether as there are is still a significant minority who may share that view. Even in minority, those people should still be represented in Parliament. That's one benefit (in theory) of having a constituency system - an MP might not be in the party of power, but they can still stand up for the views of their constituents. Even if this means they can't implement policy, they can still have an influence.

I don't think this is limited to the left either, it's just that the left are currently not in power. Many right wingers on this thread have said they'd prefer a stronger opposition than the one Labour represents currently.

If a party isn't ready to stand up for what it believes in then what is the point in that party? Sure, policy should be fluid and open to debate. But we are all different and we all have different views. If a significant portion of people feel they have no affiliation with any political party, then in my opinion the political system and/or the parties involved have failed them.

glasfryn · Jul 29, 2015

soistes said:
I agree with this, and will vote for Corbyn because of it. I also don't expect to see another Labour majority government in my lifetime (I'm 60). There is not likely during that period to be a majority of the population (certainly now that Scotland has been lost to the SNP) who hold the same kind of views that I hold, but I still want to be able to vote for a party that represents those views, and will uphold them consistently in parliament, rather than bending with the wind of mass popular opinion under media influence. Also, given that it still seems to be the case that there is still a non-Conservative majority (even in England), I think that with a Labour party of the kind I describe, over time the chances will increase of the more 'progressive' (I hate that word, but you know what I mean) parties - Labour, Greens, possibly LibDems and nationalists too - recognising this and perhaps even agreeing not to stand against each other in seats where there's a chance of beating a Tory, and being prepared to work together in a left-of-centre coalition (with each representing the views of their own particular constituency). This would be much better, in my view, than a world in which a wimpish 'new Labour' type party ploughs ahead on its own and continues to fail both in representing the views of the left and in getting elected to government, the result being semi-permanent Tory hegemony.

Oh this definitely this
one of and probably the main reason I left the Labour party was because they had become the watered down tories.
old fasioned I know but I like a Labour party to be a socialist party

Titanic · Jul 29, 2015

Steve.S said:
I think that the political parties underestimate the level of discontent amongst the voting population. People are not voting and of those that do vote are looking at other parties. I think Corbyn is the right man at the right time, it's time for a change in politics

apart from the SNP in Scotland as a result of Labour's appalling performance in the Referendum campaign, and an entirely predictable rump voting UKIP... what evidence is there for that from the General Election?

Castello · Jul 29, 2015

5ways said:
The first job of a political party is to get elected.The centre-ground is the only thing that works. David Cameron firmly positioned himself there in 2010 and it worked. Blair dominated the centre-ground, which went pretty well too.

I think this pretty neatly sums up what is at the core of the difference of views.

Many people including the majority of the mainstream party supporters see politics as being about winning elections. To them democracy means solely parliamentary democracy. Under this paradigm winning elections is all important as without doing that you cannot govern. To them the only way of getting what you want is by being the government.

Others including myself and a minority of people from both main parties and the majority of supporters for the smaller parties see politics as being about effecting change. To us democracy would include parliamentary democracy as a small part of how to effect change but would include other tools including direct action, public protests, industrial action, lobbying councils community based politics and many other forms of action. Having a sympathetic government helps but isn't the totality of what politics mean to us. it isnt just the left that see this, I have seen several posts by people whoi describe themselves as rightward leaning who welcome Corbyn as he brings a debate about issues.

I was in Brighton at the weekend visiting my family. My sister a lifelong labour party member and voting against Corbyn is depressed because she sees no way the labour party can win. My wife and I life long socialists are upbeat, because at long last the issues we believe in are being heard. This isnt something that has happened with Jeremy Corbyn but has been growing for the last couple of years and gaining pace over the last year. This is why I believe politics is changing.

More and more people are talking about politics as being something outside of parliament. When was the last time a party leadership election got this much attention. the last time even approaching this was when Tony Benn stood for deputy leader against Dennis Healey in 1981 ( a week before the SDP gang of 4 deserted having ensured healeys victory).

As a socialist I dont have any problem with people holding different views of politics than mine. I welcome a challenging but civil debate on ideas with them. I even have changed my mind when presented with a reasoned well presented view. That's central to democracy and how change is effected. Talking about how Jeremy Corbyn may or may not affect the next election result is like talking about whether Brighton will be a premiership team by 2020, a bit of fun but ultimately irrelevent to what actually will happen.

"The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, The point is to change it" the epitath on Karl Marx's tomb.

Castello · Jul 29, 2015

glasfryn said:
Oh this definitely this
one of and probably the main reason I left the Labour party was because they had become the watered down tories.
old fasioned I know but I like a Labour party to be a socialist party

yup as a 57 year old that sums me up as well.

Vegas Seagull · Jul 29, 2015

Unison has just joined Unite in recommending Corbyn as its favoured candidate, with Cooper 2nd preference

Titanic · Jul 29, 2015

Vegas Seagull said:
Unison has just joined Unite in recommending Corbyn as its favoured candidate, with Cooper 2nd preference

The perfect storm for Labour. :laugh:

5ways · Jul 29, 2015

Castello said:
I think this pretty neatly sums up what is at the core of the difference of views.

Many people including the majority of the mainstream party supporters see politics as being about winning elections. To them democracy means solely parliamentary democracy. Under this paradigm winning elections is all important as without doing that you cannot govern. To them the only way of getting what you want is by being the government......

A thoughtful post. Where it seems I differ from people on this thread is the belief firstly that change comes from within (parliament), not without. Secondly I see the broadening of the centre-ground as a good thing not a bad thing. That the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour agree on many issues is a strength. A good but extreme example is capital punishment. Another would be the belief that capitalism generates prosperity better than any other system. This political consensus also makes the running the state more efficient and the UK more competitive globally because we're so politically stable.

The more big issues that are agreed upon the more nuance you can have in debates on specific policy.That the three main parties believe, in the main, that staying in the EU is good for Britain strengthens our position in seeking European reforms, for example. We can opt for a scalpel (mainstream) rather than a sledgehammer (ukip).

Although people perhaps don't think about this in everyday life the political consensus has generated fairly broad prosperity. I don't think that swing-voters by and large would welcome the disruption that Corbyn would bring. This could provide the opening for Osborne to assume power, rather than really contest it, in 2020.

Hastings gull · Jul 29, 2015

Vegas Seagull said:
Unison has just joined Unite in recommending Corbyn as its favoured candidate, with Cooper 2nd preference

I think by this we mean the minority of left wingers who tend to dominate, aware of their disproportionate power if they front large organisations. My wife is a member of Unison and does not ever recall eve being asked as to which candidate she prefers, if any.

beorhthelm · Jul 29, 2015

Hastings gull said:
I think by this we mean the minority of left wingers who tend to dominate, aware of their disproportionate power if they front large organisations. My wife is a member of Unison and does not ever recall eve being asked as to which candidate she prefers, if any.

why would they ask, when they can tell you what what the official line will be? the authoritarian, statist apporach is one of the core differences between the Labour left and the Liberal left.

Mustafa said:
It seems, as a paper, it can't really put its money where its mouth is.

its a newspaper, reporting events and opinions. it seems to be capturing the turmoil within the Labour party, what did you expect, full blown partisan support for Corbyn?

Gwylan · Jul 29, 2015

beorhthelm said:
its a newspaper, reporting events and opinions. it seems to be capturing the turmoil within the Labour party, what did you expect, full blown partisan support for Corbyn?

It's actually been very hostile to Corbyn, almost hysterically so. The paper is beginning to twist itself in knots about the leadership, partly because it can't decide who it supports and partly because it seems to be at odds with a good many of its readers

Castello · Jul 29, 2015

beorhthelm said:
why would they ask, when they can tell you what what the official line will be? the authoritarian, statist apporach is one of the core differences between the Labour left and the Liberal left.

I love it when the right show how little they really know about how the left thinks and what divides exist within the left. I'm curious as to which of these rather limited two views of the left Jeremy Corbyn falls into.

beorhthelm said:
its a newspaper, reporting events and opinions. it seems to be capturing the turmoil within the Labour party, what did you expect, full blown partisan support for Corbyn?

actually I'd expect the guardian to take its normal arse licking mindless devoted adoration of the mainstream Labour party. As demonstrated It hasnt let me down.

beorhthelm · Jul 29, 2015

Castello said:
I love it when the right show how little they really know about how the left thinks and what divides exist within the left. I'm curious as to which of these rather limited two views of the left Jeremy Corbyn falls into.

i like how you suppose that because i've expressed a view listing only two facets, i dont consider there to be many more, nuanced fractures. i dont believe Corbyn fits either of these, why the parliamentry Labour party is have such trouble with his popularity. (splitter).

Castello · Jul 30, 2015

beorhthelm said:
i like how you suppose that because i've expressed a view listing only two facets, i dont consider there to be many more, nuanced fractures. i dont believe Corbyn fits either of these, why the parliamentry Labour party is have such trouble with his popularity. (splitter).

fair point

Herr Tubthumper · Jul 30, 2015

This has turned into an excellent discussion and some excellent points have been made, thanks especially to [MENTION=18487]Seagull27[/MENTION] and [MENTION=13960]Castello[/MENTION]

These last two posters especially have helped me decide which person I will vote for, and helped me the reasons for my decision. It's got to be Corbyn.

Steve.S · Jul 30, 2015

Titanic said:
apart from the SNP in Scotland as a result of Labour's appalling performance in the Referendum campaign, and an entirely predictable rump voting UKIP... what evidence is there for that from the General Election?

Roughly 61% of people in England voted and 36% of that vote went to the Tories. So 39% of the population are either indifferent, can't be bothered or don't want what's on offer. Since 97 that's a 10% drop. Of those that voted 64% did not vote for the Tories, time for a change and I think,( that's my opinion) that will start to happen over the next few years. Austerity will really kick in over this parliament and that's when the tide will turn

Seagull on the wing · Jul 30, 2015

Oh please let Corbyn win....left wing has been rejected by voters since Michael Foot...with Corbyn in wanting us to disarm,let in all immigrants (where they'll house them all god knows,we have trouble housing people now,let alone the infrastructure of schools,doctors,roads) Labour will be unelectable for years to come.

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