[Help] Help needed - child with anger problems

Paul Reids Sock · Feb 23, 2018

Lush said:
Obviously professional help is good but is there a relative or friend of the family who could treat her to a milkshake and a chat occasionally? Maybe they have a shared interest? Your daughter then has a chance to let go of what's going on in her head. They can make it clear that so long as she's not at risk, then everything is confidential.

This is a brilliant recomendation

I had some troubles when I was a kid. Parents split up and I got a new step dad (he was a total ********). I started lashing out a bit and being a bit of a toss pot all things considered. However what really helped was my Uncle. He had been through similar as a kid and would always call on a Wednesday or Thursday when my mum was working late. It took me years to realise he knew that and was only calling to talk to me and see how I was getting on but it changed a lot. Half an hour-hour to sound off at him about everything meant I didn't lash out at others. the guy was a massive influence on my life despite the fact that I had only met him twice before those calls, we aren't massively close these years later but I will never forget the help he was.

Normal Rob · Feb 23, 2018

Thanks for all the positive responses. They really do help on a day when i've been feeling really down. Forgive me for responding to questions (or help) en masse but it just seems easier.

I'll start by explaining that my wife is on her PGCE year to become a secondary school teacher. We are desperately working towards buying a bigger house and need the second income. Due to the location of her placement, and my job requiring a commute, neither of us get home before 6.30pm and we rely heavily on childcare. Fortunate the 2 childminders we use are lovely, and friends.
We live in a small house on a busy main road, so don't have room for pets TBH. We are constantly fighting the rising tide of washing and general carnage that 3 kids make. We simply could not add to it or take on more responsibility. I understand the suggestion, but the reality is that we really could not cope.
Sport is an option, she loves football but we struggle to make the sessions due to work. I take her and her sister swimming, plus they do lessons, but there is no great interest over and above it being a little bit of fun. Rugby is possible but when i've mentioned it it has not been well recieved. Maybe i'll try again.
We have no relatives nearby save my mum, who is not strong enough to look after small children. Also she has never been the engaging, 'kind ear' type. Friends help where they can, but we have never set up any formal time with them.
We always try to ensure that she gets treat food at any party, either by speaking to the parents in advance, or by sending her with something. However it can sometimes excentuate the alienation if there is a special plate for the 'gluten free child'. That does not mean that we do not appreciate people doing this (we do), and perhaps i'm just being over sensitive on her behalf, but it oftens feels that way.

Today's been hard as having taken 3 steps forward, it hurt to take one back so harshly. I'll keep reminding myself that we are still 2 steps ahead of where we were.

darkwolf666 · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
things had been going ok until this morning. My girl had been seeing the support worker at school, and we've had a home visit also. It brought up some unexpected things. It seems as though the death of my father on Christmas eve 5 years ago hit her harder than we thought. All 3 of my kids were there when i got the call from the police (it was totally unexpected) and then, obviously were around when we had both my mum and brother to stay with us for the following week. She remembers the day, and him, better than i thought. This, alongside her alienation through being a strong tomboy, plus being coeliac and always having to eat differently from other children (please, if you have kids parties, always try to find out if there are kids with dietry requirements attending, it's not nice for a child to have to just sit and watch as the other kids get cakes and sweets etc) have clearly contributed to her issues.

But, as i said, it was all going well until this morning. I was getting all 3 ready for school and was just finishing the packed lunches but i could not find her water bottle. This was my fault obviously. It started to spiral out of control and i knew it. But i failed to stop it and instead i got angry myself. I lost my temper and screamed at her and in return was bitten, kicked and then punched in the face. It was all i could do to not strike back. I got them to the car and literally hurled her in. I knew that she would not put her belt on, and if i did it she would just undo it repeatedly, so i'm sorry to say i just drove off, knowing that she would put it on herself out of fear if i did so. The cold weather of late has led to her having a split lip, which re-opened this morning in her rage and now she is saying that she is going to get school to report me to the police so that i get arrested and taken away. I hope the school know me well enough to know that i could never hurt her deliberately. It's not been a good morning.

Apologies for spilling all on here.

I've only read this far so far and believe a visit to the GP is a must and hopefully a referral to CAMHS. You daughter clearly has a problem that can't just be explained away as anger issues. Someone obviously touched on autism and Aspergers earlier, but to be honest there a million and one complaints that easily go undiagnosed without the right tests or checks.
Good luck...

darkwolf666 · Feb 23, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Hi Rob, sorry to hear the problems you are having.

I’d just like to share with you a strategy my school uses and one that I found particularly useful when dealing with a seven year old boy who had similar anger issues and, on any given day, could send tables and chairs hurling across the room at me and other pupils. It was pretty terrifying to see just how angry he could be but by using something called emotion coaching we slowly but surely started to see little improvements. It’s not a magic wand but it worked well.

The gist of it is to teach children to recognise how they feel, why they feel it and how to self regulate. It sounds pretty ‘wooly’ but stick with me. Emotion Coaching starts by recognising your child’s feelings, acknowledgeing them and then setting behavioural boundaries i.e. “I can see you are feeling angry, it’s ok to feel angry but it’s not ok to hit or punch”. While it takes time to teach a child about feelings and appropriate behaviors, it is time well spent.

You can find more on http://www.parentingcounts.org/information/timeline/five-steps-of-emotion-coaching/

It may sound a bit meh but it really helped me with a few children suffering from anger and anxiety. Hope it helps.

The problem there is the young lady in question isn't having meltdowns at school. I know from my own experience it is difficult to get school to fully engage when they don't see it as "their" problem.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2018

darkwolf666 said:
The problem there is the young lady in question isn't having meltdowns at school. I know from my own experience it is difficult to get school to fully engage when they don't see it as "their" problem.

Emotion Coaching isn’t just a strategy to be utilised at school. It can be used anywhere. It’s about acknowledging how a child feels and teaching then to recognise their emotions and self regulate. Funny you say that because my experience as a teacher it is often the other way around and parents leave it to the school to sort out. Only together, with outside agencies if necessary, and without playing the blame game will the child be helped.

Martlet · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
Thanks for all the positive responses. They really do help on a day when i've been feeling really down. Forgive me for responding to questions (or help) en masse but it just seems easier.

I'll start by explaining that my wife is on her PGCE year to become a secondary school teacher. We are desperately working towards buying a bigger house and need the second income. Due to the location of her placement, and my job requiring a commute, neither of us get home before 6.30pm and we rely heavily on childcare. Fortunate the 2 childminders we use are lovely, and friends.
We live in a small house on a busy main road, so don't have room for pets TBH. We are constantly fighting the rising tide of washing and general carnage that 3 kids make. We simply could not add to it or take on more responsibility. I understand the suggestion, but the reality is that we really could not cope.
Sport is an option, she loves football but we struggle to make the sessions due to work. I take her and her sister swimming, plus they do lessons, but there is no great interest over and above it being a little bit of fun. Rugby is possible but when i've mentioned it it has not been well recieved. Maybe i'll try again.
We have no relatives nearby save my mum, who is not strong enough to look after small children. Also she has never been the engaging, 'kind ear' type. Friends help where they can, but we have never set up any formal time with them.
We always try to ensure that she gets treat food at any party, either by speaking to the parents in advance, or by sending her with something. However it can sometimes excentuate the alienation if there is a special plate for the 'gluten free child'. That does not mean that we do not appreciate people doing this (we do), and perhaps i'm just being over sensitive on her behalf, but it oftens feels that way.

Today's been hard as having taken 3 steps forward, it hurt to take one back so harshly. I'll keep reminding myself that we are still 2 steps ahead of where we were.

Rob

I don't have much more to add than has already been posted here - just wanted to say stick with it. Sounds like you're doing really well - and your daughter will never forget that you were both there for her. You'll look back and laugh.

Stay calm, try not to take it personally, she clearly has a lot of emotions and doesn't know how to deal with them.

Good luck

C

darkwolf666 · Feb 23, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
Emotion Coaching isn’t just a strategy to be utilised at school. It can be used anywhere. It’s about acknowledging how a child feels and teaching then to recognise their emotions and self regulate. Funny you say that because my experience as a teacher it is often the other way around and parents leave it to the school to sort out. Only together, with outside agencies if necessary, and without playing the blame game will the child be helped.

Shame you feel I am blaming school, only seeing it as my experience where the school SENCO told me an issue we were having with one of our kids was a home issue and nothing to do with school, so excuse me if I felt let down.

midnight_rendezvous · Feb 23, 2018

darkwolf666 said:
Shame you feel I am blaming school, only seeing it as my experience where the school SENCO told me an issue we were having with one of our kids was a home issue and nothing to do with school, so excuse me if I felt let down.

You are more than entitled to feel let down. Your child should be supported at school regardless of whether the issue stems from home life or school life. I just don’t think your unfortunate experience is necessarily the norm. The main issue I refer to regarding parents being the ‘issue’ is usually in cases where there is a desire to send them to a mainstream school when that school isn’t equipped to deal with the needs of the child. The child must always come first. I hope your issue has been, or gets, sorted as quickly as possible.

darkwolf666 · Feb 23, 2018

midnight_rendezvous said:
You are more than entitled to feel let down. Your child should be supported at school regardless of whether the issue stems from home life or school life. I just don’t think your unfortunate experience is necessarily the norm. The main issue I refer to regarding parents being the ‘issue’ is usually in cases where there is a desire to send them to a mainstream school when that school isn’t equipped to deal with the needs of the child. The child must always come first. I hope your issue has been, or gets, sorted as quickly as possible.

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment of your post. Hopefully between school and home this young ladies issues can be resolved, though it may be more than a simple home/school problem, hence my earlier reference to CAMHS.

pearl · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
Thanks for all the positive responses. They really do help on a day when i've been feeling really down. Forgive me for responding to questions (or help) en masse but it just seems easier.

I'll start by explaining that my wife is on her PGCE year to become a secondary school teacher. We are desperately working towards buying a bigger house and need the second income. Due to the location of her placement, and my job requiring a commute, neither of us get home before 6.30pm and we rely heavily on childcare. Fortunate the 2 childminders we use are lovely, and friends.
We live in a small house on a busy main road, so don't have room for pets TBH. We are constantly fighting the rising tide of washing and general carnage that 3 kids make. We simply could not add to it or take on more responsibility. I understand the suggestion, but the reality is that we really could not cope.
Sport is an option, she loves football but we struggle to make the sessions due to work. I take her and her sister swimming, plus they do lessons, but there is no great interest over and above it being a little bit of fun. Rugby is possible but when i've mentioned it it has not been well recieved. Maybe i'll try again.
We have no relatives nearby save my mum, who is not strong enough to look after small children. Also she has never been the engaging, 'kind ear' type. Friends help where they can, but we have never set up any formal time with them.
We always try to ensure that she gets treat food at any party, either by speaking to the parents in advance, or by sending her with something. However it can sometimes excentuate the alienation if there is a special plate for the 'gluten free child'. That does not mean that we do not appreciate people doing this (we do), and perhaps i'm just being over sensitive on her behalf, but it oftens feels that way.

Today's been hard as having taken 3 steps forward, it hurt to take one back so harshly. I'll keep reminding myself that we are still 2 steps ahead of where we were.

I've no experience of bringing up children, but maybe this morning was a bit of a blip and things will be better this evening, good luck

Lush · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
Thanks for all the positive responses. They really do help on a day when i've been feeling really down. Forgive me for responding to questions (or help) en masse but it just seems easier.

I'll start by explaining that my wife is on her PGCE year to become a secondary school teacher. We are desperately working towards buying a bigger house and need the second income. Due to the location of her placement, and my job requiring a commute, neither of us get home before 6.30pm and we rely heavily on childcare. Fortunate the 2 childminders we use are lovely, and friends.
We live in a small house on a busy main road, so don't have room for pets TBH. We are constantly fighting the rising tide of washing and general carnage that 3 kids make. We simply could not add to it or take on more responsibility. I understand the suggestion, but the reality is that we really could not cope.
Sport is an option, she loves football but we struggle to make the sessions due to work. I take her and her sister swimming, plus they do lessons, but there is no great interest over and above it being a little bit of fun. Rugby is possible but when i've mentioned it it has not been well recieved. Maybe i'll try again.
We have no relatives nearby save my mum, who is not strong enough to look after small children. Also she has never been the engaging, 'kind ear' type. Friends help where they can, but we have never set up any formal time with them.
We always try to ensure that she gets treat food at any party, either by speaking to the parents in advance, or by sending her with something. However it can sometimes excentuate the alienation if there is a special plate for the 'gluten free child'. That does not mean that we do not appreciate people doing this (we do), and perhaps i'm just being over sensitive on her behalf, but it oftens feels that way.

Today's been hard as having taken 3 steps forward, it hurt to take one back so harshly. I'll keep reminding myself that we are still 2 steps ahead of where we were.

I wonder if it's possible that the whole family is under stress at the moment? You use the words "desperately" "heavily" "constantly fighting" "carnage". Anyone who's a parent knows about this, but is there anyway that you can all try and cut yourselves a bit of slack? Is there anything you're trying to get done that you could let go so you're under a bit less pressure?

As an aside - you say she's interested in football. I've found going to a match a brilliant way of spending time with kids/teenagers. You sit side by side. You can talk if you want to or just share the experience.

Hastings gull · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
Hi NSC,

My daughter (middle child of 3, aged 9) has always been a feisty tomboy but recently her anger has really been getting out of hand. Lashing out at me/my wife/her sisters, throwing/breaking things etc. It's never her fault, always ours or her sisters as 'we make her angry'. It's getting to the point where I have verged on lashing back myself. My eldest child is in the early stages of puberty and i've seen the mood swings that it causes, and it's because of all of these reasons that its time that I/we/she seek help otherwise i fear for what may happen in a few short years time. Has anyone got any similar experience and advice on where to start? Is it a GP visit? with or without my daughter?

Thanks,

Rob.

Obviously, I don't know how bad it is at home and it could be that we have differing ideas as to what constitutes "out of hand" -not wanting to denigrate in any way what you say. Looking at it from a teacher's point of view, the situation may not be as bleak as you think. If she is well behaved at school, then she is clearly well aware of what is needed in public, and that is a good sign. You as parents are the outlet valve when she comes home having said "yes, sir, no sir, three bags full, sir" all day long. Thus more challenging behaviour is to be expected. I lost count of how many times at parent evenings, I would say something to the effect of "what a lovely child" you have, only for parents to reply, more often than not, "are we talking about the same child?" !

I appreciate that it is easy for me to claim all this and you are the ones tearing your hair out, but to me, the situation may not be the disaster you currently (and quite understandably) regard it to be. IF she is able to cooperate fully in school, has a stable home background, and treated with love and consistency, then the norm is that in the long run, she will be a perfectly well-adjusted normal child.

MJsGhost · Feb 23, 2018

Rob, if there's one thing that's for sure, it's that your daughter is lucky to have a dad who cares so much (and mum too I'm sure!), so although it seems incredibly hard at times (particularly the setbacks), you will get there because you will keep going until you do.
While it is to be avoided where you can, don't dwell on the times you let it get to you and lose your temper. There is little as soul destroying as having someone lash out at you (physically or verbally or both) when you are doing everything in your power to help them. It's not your daughter's fault that she is feeling like this, just as it's not your fault that you occasionally lose it - you're angry at her in the moment, but angry at the situation really. This is perfectly normal.

There have been many great ideas on here already and I don't have any practical suggestions in addition to those, so I just wanted to to offer reassurance that you are not alone in facing these challenges and that you will get through it and (as others have said), look back on it and laugh.

Weststander · Feb 23, 2018

Look up the advice and work of Dr Tanya Byron, a leading child clinical psychologist. There may even be TV progs on youtube.

Reacting with your own anger and aggression, is the wrong route.

Westdene Wonder · Feb 23, 2018

Pevenseagull said:
Any pets?
Not being glib, but a family I know have an 8/9 year old who was getting a bit stroppy and they got a rabbit and guniea pig and within a couple of weeks they calmed right down.

Do you have good recipes for both?

BadFish · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
this is one of the strange things. She behaves well in class, and is a rule follower. However at home it's different. I appreciate that a home should be a safe environment where a child can feel able to push boundaries, but this is way beyond that.

This is not that strange, during my time teaching i have heard this quite a lot. There is a school of thought that believes that kids are working so hard at school to do the right thing that when they ease off a whole day's worth of anger and frustration comes out. So a perfectly behaved kid at school comes home and rages at their parents and sibling. My son is a bit like this with his ADHD, he holds it together (with the aid of medication) at school and then relaxes and home and is an uncontrollable mess of hyperactivity for a time. Add this to my Aspergers boy who needs peace and quiet company after coping with the stresses of a school day and our small ish house and we have quite a heady mix.

Can I recommend this book https://www.bookdepository.com/Tricky-Kids-Andrew-Fuller/9781876451769 i think this is an English website? He categorises behaviours and then talks about how parents and teachers can work with their children to control and use the behaviours in a positive way. You can read each category and decide if your child fits into it (most tricky children fit into a few of the categories) then you can look at how to deal with them.

Hope you find some answers mate, its not easy.

BadFish · Feb 23, 2018

Normal Rob said:
yes, some but like most working families not as much as I probably should. Both my wife and i work and this means having to get the kids up early and into pre-school clubs and child minders after school. This is relatively new thig as my wife has recently changed job and this may well be a contributing factor, but there have been signs for a long time before this shift in routine.

Anyhow i have to take her to her swimming lesson now so i'll catch up on any other replies later. Cheers all

This routine may be contributing. I had a kid in my class a few years ago who was often out of control and easily manipulated by older kids to do sill stuff, jump of roofs etc. His biggest problem was the disorganisation of after school care (he was eventualy diagnosed with aspergers and ADHD). This kid was spiralling out of control especially in afterschool care. Both parents worked and he was in after school care every night of the week and after talking to him I started to realise he hated it and he hated it because he found it so damn difficult. I spoke to the parents who dismissed my thoughts for a while and told me they couldn't do anything about it. Eventually though they 'trialled' switching their shifts around at work so mum could pick him up from school one day a week and day another, after school care the other three. I also suggested they come in to the classroom on those pick ups and see the work that he had been doing that day. I am not going to pretend that all his problems melted away, far from it. However things did get better for that kid and his parents. His behaviour, their lives and their marriage (i found out later as i played football with the dad for a time) all improved as a result of taking him out of a situation that he could not cope with.

I am not for a moment suggesting that your child needs a diagnosis but the mind of a child is a complex thing and in my opinion there is usually a reason for their behaviour. The trick is finding the trigger and then working out what can be done with it. In my experience with my Aspergers boy instinct serve us well and it is worth starting with what your instinct tells you is behind the behaviour.

Keep talking to her and eventually she will give you some clues even if she can't explain it herself.

BadFish · Feb 23, 2018

Pevenseagull said:
Any pets?
Not being glib, but a family I know have an 8/9 year old who was getting a bit stroppy and they got a rabbit and guniea pig and within a couple of weeks they calmed right down.

Spot on here, our cats are the most amazing therapy for all three of our kids.

Pevenseagull · Feb 23, 2018

Westdene Wonder said:
Do you have good recipes for both?

.its a win win

BadFish · Feb 23, 2018

Sorry banging on here I know but I have one more suggestion that works in my house.

You post listed a number of things that bother your child the were uncovered by the counsellor. Sometimes just dealing with that list help enormously the simple act of working through it will do two things, firstly she will know you are on her side and you are going to help (I have told my kids this directly and told them that what ever the problems they have i will not stop helping them with them if they need me). It may also put the problems into perspective and often they don't look quite so bad once you knock off the simpler ones .

So I sit with them and list all the problems and worries they have. Then we sort them in difficulty to solve. Then work through them and see how many solutions you can find. For example: the treats and cakes at school thing could be solved by the teacher giving you the heads up on the days when treats are going to be handed out and you can send her to school with a treat she can have, or the teacher can have some treats for her in her desk, or you can give her extra screen time on those days, or her favourite dinner. Give her the choice and work it out together so you find something that works for everyone. You are obviously going to get further down the list and find there are somethings that cannot be easily solved but once you have explained that you will find a way to help with this stuff and won't stop until they are solved you end up with a much smaller list of worries and the worries on the list don't seem as daunting as they are now shared and 'dad is on it'.

You have also spent some quality time together talking about important stuff which improves your relationship and shows her what happens when she communicates with you. Something that is important in the teenage years (my oldest has just turned 13 and so far it seems to be working - I can hear the parents of teenagers laughing at my optimism as we speak

).

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[Help] Help needed - child with anger problems

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