[Politics] Brexit

kevo · Sep 21, 2016

To all those who say it hasn't had a detrimental effect on the economy - well, we haven't actually left yet.

When we do, then expect more stories like this. We are definitely going to lose a lot of jobs in the science and medical sector. It's taken a long time for Britain to be at the forefront of scientific research. What a collossal f**k up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/17/eu-countries-rush-steal-uk-based-research-projects

Neville's Breakfast · Sep 21, 2016

kevo said:
To all those who say it hasn't had a detrimental effect on the economy - well, we haven't actually left yet.

When we do, then expect more stories like this. We are definitely going to lose a lot of jobs in the science and medical sector. It's taken a long time for Britain to be at the forefront of scientific research. What a collossal f**k up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/17/eu-countries-rush-steal-uk-based-research-projects

If your side were to get a second referendum you would be well advised to advocate the positive case for EU membership. Negative predictions have been proven not to work once already.....

beorhthelm · Sep 21, 2016

kevo said:
To all those who say it hasn't had a detrimental effect on the economy - well, we haven't actually left yet.

When we do, then expect more stories like this. We are definitely going to lose a lot of jobs in the science and medical sector. It's taken a long time for Britain to be at the forefront of scientific research. What a collossal f**k up.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/17/eu-countries-rush-steal-uk-based-research-projects

why should we? in amongst the claims and counter claims over the payments for the EU, the fact is we are net contributors to the EU. the government could easily ring fence all funding for science (along with regional development, cultural programmes and even agriculture) and have a dividend to spare - maybe to invest in science and research (much better long term than NHS). so there's a chance that out of the EU we become more prominent in this area, certainly not a certainty that all research will cease and leave for Europe. given that the premier research institution CERN is in Switerzerland, it seems rather academic anyway. and on academia, the top universities is dominated by US and UK institutions, with i think only one from the rest of EU in the top 50.

yxee · Sep 21, 2016

So we will lose funding for research from the EU. Who we pay to fund research, and who invest less than 100% of our investment back into the UK. Travesty!

Lincoln Imp · Sep 21, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
If your side were to get a second referendum you would be well advised to advocate the positive case for EU membership. Negative predictions have been proven not to work once already.....

I agree with you that the European case should have been presented more positively but not with the implication that negative campaigns don't work. Sometimes they do. IDS claimed that we were more likely to be murdered if we stayed in, Gove prattled on about Turkey joining and millions of Muslims turning up, Boris invoked the Third Reich and Farage produced his 'The Syrians are Coming' poster and threw in threats of foreign types raping our women. And all this against background noises about populations the equivalent of Birmingham's being added to our overcrowded island every ten minutes or something. The real Project Fear worked a treat I'd say.

Pretty pink fairy · Sep 21, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I agree with you that the European case should have been presented more positively but not with the implication that negative campaigns don't work. Sometimes they do. IDS claimed that we were more likely to be murdered if we stayed in, Gove prattled on about Turkey joining and millions of Muslims turning up, Boris invoked the Third Reich and Farage produced his 'The Syrians are Coming' poster and threw in threats of foreign types raping our women. And all this against background noises about populations the equivalent of Birmingham's being added to our overcrowded island every ten minutes or something. The real Project Fear worked a treat I'd say.

WELL THEY WERE SEXUALLY ASSAULTING WOMEN IN Cologne, GIVE IT A REST AND GO TO BED :clap:

regards
DR

Hampster Gull · Sep 21, 2016

I blame Corbyn, imbecile

Neville's Breakfast · Sep 21, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I agree with you that the European case should have been presented more positively but not with the implication that negative campaigns don't work. Sometimes they do. IDS claimed that we were more likely to be murdered if we stayed in, Gove prattled on about Turkey joining and millions of Muslims turning up, Boris invoked the Third Reich and Farage produced his 'The Syrians are Coming' poster and threw in threats of foreign types raping our women. And all this against background noises about populations the equivalent of Birmingham's being added to our overcrowded island every ten minutes or something. The real Project Fear worked a treat I'd say.

Sure, both sides indulged in negative campaigning. However Leave had an advantage because a positive case for something new could be made. Remain fell into the trap of responding with a negative spin on the positive Leave case and making ever more outlandish claims. It was also a mistake to dismiss out of hand and ridicule Leave because by so doing large numbers of the population were being insulted... And this is still going on. Referring back to a previous discussion about loss of trust in the political establishment perhaps this happened in part amidst these insults.
I stand by my point that Remain may have carried the day if it had outlined the positive aspects of EU membership and refrained from the superior dishing out of insults. It may also have helped if some of the fears raised by Leave had been treated respectfully and the more outlandish claims ignored.
You lost in part because your leader was David Cameron and he is a negative campaigner (see Scottish referendum). DC set the terms of the debate and unfortunately for you this filtered down even as far as the conduct of the debate on forums such as NSC.
My intelligence was continually insulted and I have to say that didn't half irritate....it seems incredible to me that anyone can think that one can persuade someone of a case by insulting them.

pastafarian · Sep 21, 2016

Lincoln Imp said:
I agree with you that the European case should have been presented more positively but not with the implication that negative campaigns don't work. Sometimes they do. IDS claimed that we were more likely to be murdered if we stayed in, Gove prattled on about Turkey joining and millions of Muslims turning up, Boris invoked the Third Reich and Farage produced his 'The Syrians are Coming' poster and threw in threats of foreign types raping our women. And all this against background noises about populations the equivalent of Birmingham's being added to our overcrowded island every ten minutes or something. The real Project Fear worked a treat I'd say.

Negative campaigns don’t work when its all you have to resort to because you struggle to find the positives that you are looking for.
There were plenty of negatives concerning the EU to keep all leavers happy. They were a gift that kept on giving.

Its clear from what you have written that you deliberately mis interpreted the information given to you or flippantly misrepresen it to fit your pre determined stance.
This was a common theme carried out by project fear, fortunately most people saw through it.

studio150 · Sep 21, 2016

pastafarian said:
Negative campaigns don’t work when its all you have to resort to because you struggle to find the positives that you are looking for.
There were plenty of negatives concerning the EU to keep all leavers happy. They were a gift that kept on giving.

Its clear from what you have written that you deliberately mis interpreted the information given to you or flippantly misrepresen it to fit your pre determined stance.
This was a common theme carried out by project fear, fortunately most people saw through it.

So what was the real message behind Farage's poster that [MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION] referred to, please let us know how this was misinterpreted

Deleted member 22389 · Sep 22, 2016

studio150 said:
So what was the real message behind Farage's poster that @Lincoln Imp referred to, please let us know how this was misinterpreted

What does the poster say to you?

What is shows me is that the EU is at breaking point, the poster shows the truth about the numbers of people arriving in the EU everyday. To get offended about this poster is just plain silly.

Soulman · Sep 22, 2016

Neville's Breakfast said:
Sure, both sides indulged in negative campaigning. However Leave had an advantage because a positive case for something new could be made. Remain fell into the trap of responding with a negative spin on the positive Leave case and making ever more outlandish claims. It was also a mistake to dismiss out of hand and ridicule Leave because by so doing large numbers of the population were being insulted... And this is still going on. Referring back to a previous discussion about loss of trust in the political establishment perhaps this happened in part amidst these insults.
I stand by my point that Remain may have carried the day if it had outlined the positive aspects of EU membership and refrained from the superior dishing out of insults. It may also have helped if some of the fears raised by Leave had been treated respectfully and the more outlandish claims ignored.
You lost in part because your leader was David Cameron and he is a negative campaigner (see Scottish referendum). DC set the terms of the debate and unfortunately for you this filtered down even as far as the conduct of the debate on forums such as NSC.
My intelligence was continually insulted and I have to say that didn't half irritate....it seems incredible to me that anyone can think that one can persuade someone of a case by insulting them.

Sums it up perfectly.

cunning fergus · Sep 22, 2016

Hampster Gull said:
I blame Corbyn, imbecile

On the assumption you are being serious, you really shouldn't.

Notwithstanding whether or not deep down he genuinely wants to remain in the EU, the facts are that even if he had campaigned for remain vigorously he would not have made any difference.

Jo Cox was shot dead in her constituency and was like many of her PLP peers vigorously pro EU. Her constituency still voted leave........in her constituency it is likely the dynamic between leave and remain changed because of this event, but it was still not enough for remain to carry the day.

Jeremy Corbyn, could have set himself on fire in an act of self immolation to demonstrate his commitment to the EU and we would still have voted leave.

El Presidente · Sep 22, 2016

Jeremy Corbyn half heartedly campaigned to remain and has been castigated for it, allowing his opponents to try to oust him.

Theresa May half heartedly campaigned to remain and was made Prime Minister.

BigGully · Sep 22, 2016

El Presidente said:
Jeremy Corbyn half heartedly campaigned to remain and has been castigated for it, allowing his opponents to try to oust him.

Theresa May half heartedly campaigned to remain and was made Prime Minister.

Therefore both were Eurosceptics, the Labour party are not and the Tory party are and the vote went to Leave.

It delivers different outcomes and is not the same thing.

beorhthelm · Sep 22, 2016

cunning fergus said:
Jeremy Corbyn, could have set himself on fire in an act of self immolation to demonstrate his commitment to the EU and we would still have voted leave.

disagree, Corbyn as leader of the Labour party had a position to take a lead, if he had argued clearly for being in the EU he could have taken a significant number of Labour loyalists that way. as it was his position was vague and with a history of being anti-europe (against free movement of people or capital in principle), so most of his tribe where without leadership and went off to make up their own mind. great for the principle of direct democracy, not so great for the remain campaign. note, some of the same could be said for the Cameroon, if they'd argued for the EU instead of against leaving.

GT49er · Sep 22, 2016

beorhthelm said:
disagree, Corbyn as leader of the Labour party had a position to take a lead, if he had argued clearly for being in the EU he could have taken a significant number of Labour loyalists that way. as it was his position was vague and with a history of being anti-europe (against free movement of people or capital in principle), so most of his tribe where without leadership and went off to make up their own mind. great for the principle of direct democracy, not so great for the remain campaign. note, some of the same could be said for the Cameroon, if they'd argued for the EU instead of against leaving.

Or perhaps, just for once, Corbyn was smarter than his detractors think. Maybe he realised that, unlike the PLP who are almost universally Europhiles, vast swathes of Labour voters in Labour heartlands didn't share the Westminster bubble's blinkered view of a wonderful future ahead in the sunny uplands of the EU, and wanted to vote leave. The referendum results show that he may have been right on this occasion.
Not that I'm saying he's often right, mind!

Lincoln Imp · Sep 22, 2016

I think your underlying point about Labour heartland voters is right although I doubt Corbyn knows it.

The Labour Party was established, via their unions, by working people to protect their interests. From the start the party's supporters were therefore those workers and their families, plus sections of what was then called the intelligentsia. Things are more complicated now.

It seems to me that the party's natural constituency can now be split at least four ways: 1. Those among the traditional working classes who rely, though little or no fault of their own, on the succour and support of the state and its agencies. 2. Those with an ideological attachment to the traditional aims of the left. 3. The liberal middle-classes. 4. Aspirational working class or ex-working class voters.

Labour's problem is that it can only really rely on those first two groups. The liberals in group 3 are shaky - if Labour moves left they will tend to look elsewhere on the ballot paper. Group 4 is the relevant one here. Most of the 'working class' people I grew up with are to the right of me. They are not necessarily philistines but they have a big interest in the wellbeing of their families and they tend to be socially right wing. They are anti-immigration. They are just as likely to vote UKIP as Labour and, on 23 June, that is what they effectively did. I cannot for the life of me see a Corbyn-led Labour Party getting them back.

Pretty pink fairy · Sep 22, 2016

studio150 said:
So what was the real message behind Farage's poster that [MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION] referred to, please let us know how this was misinterpreted

bottom line, stop this influx of people it can't go on ie LEAVE THE EU
regards
DR

Lincoln Imp · Sep 22, 2016

Pretty pink fairy said:
bottom line, stop this influx of people it can't go on ie LEAVE THE EU
regards
DR

Then why did his poster feature refugees whose arrival or not in the UK has nothing to do with our membership of the EU?

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