[Politics] Brexit

Simster · Sep 28, 2018

Plooks said:
This is my point. We decided the race to lower wages was ok. We allowed it to happen. We could have free movement an stop wage drops, but governments and companies have decided they would rather have cheap labour and higher profits.

No that is MY point. I've been making that point all day since I discovered (thanks to [MENTION=1078]Mtoto[/MENTION] on here) our government could have prevented this influx if they'd wanted.

Your point - one that Westdene and I are objecting to - is that (in post #60391) you said it wasn't possible to undercut the local labour force because we have a minimum wage. And that is absolute horseshit.

Herr Tubthumper · Sep 28, 2018

bashlsdir said:
Likewise how many Non EU migrants have arrived in the EU over the past 5-6 years, who will eventually go on to get a passport giving them access to any country in the EU zone.

I don’t know, how many Non EU migrants have arrived in the EU over the past 5-6 years, who will eventually go on to get a passport giving them access to any country in the EU zone? Whilst I roughly know the requirements to obtain a passport in Germany I don’t know the possibility in the other 26 countries. You’ll have to tell me I’m afraid.

Thunder Bolt · Sep 28, 2018

Herr Tubthumper said:
I don’t know, how many Non EU migrants have arrived in the EU over the past 5-6 years, who will eventually go on to get a passport giving them access to any country in the EU zone? Whilst I roughly know the requirements to obtain a passport in Germany I don’t know the possibility in the other 26 countries. You’ll have to tell me I’m afraid.

I know one. Leo Ulloa, from Uruguay who got a Spanish passport.

Billy the Fish · Sep 28, 2018

Pavilionaire said:
The UK could have helped shape EU policy on inter-EU migration because it is not in the EU's interest to have barren states where those with skills have upped sticks and gone to the richer Northern European nations to make a living.

It's interesting that you raise a point that most leave voters have been arguing on this thread since day 1. Most of your fellow remain voters don't share this view.

If there was even a remote chance of this policy being discussed Brexit would never have happened.
This "UK helping to shape policy" is just a myth, the UK government can rarely agree on a policy even within their own bloody cabinet. EU policy is shaped by the Commission and the Parliament, end of. Inter-EU migration, e.g freedom of movement is absolutely sacred to them and will never ever be discussed, let alone voted on.

ManOfSussex · Sep 28, 2018

bashlsdir said:
I think immigration will go down, and I'm hoping we won't be subject to these EU rules on FOM. Everyone can be treated the same then. It's up to the government to put in some proper rules across the board and only allow people in who will add proper value to this country.

I'm glad you knew what you were voting for and wanted to end freedom of movement. I can recall you saying how much you enjoyed living in Luton amongst the Muslim, Asian diaspora, so I can see why you'd want a global immigration system and less Bulgarians and Poles coming here and more Bangladeshis and Pakistanis.

Simster · Sep 28, 2018

Plooks said:
No it isn't. If the minimum wage is deemed acceptable by the government how can you undercut wages? You can pay down the the lowest acceptable wage. If the government deem it to be acceptable why is it wrong? It is obviously a government failing.

You obviously don't know the meaning of the word "undercut" so I'll leave it there.

Westdene Seagull · Sep 28, 2018

Plooks said:
This country decided this was an acceptable amount to be paid, so you can not undercut as any worker would get paid at least this.

Plooks said:
But the minimum wage is an acceptable wage

Plooks said:
But, as a country, we decided that the minimum wage is an acceptable wage.

Plooks said:
This a ok as we decided that was an acceptable wage as a country.

Plooks said:
I NEVER said I was haply with the minimum wage. Point to me where I said I was happy with it.

So unless you don't count yourself as being among the 'we' or 'the country' you've said the minimum wage is acceptable at the current level ( in fact in my second quote you've said it explicitly ).

And if you're not among the 'we' or 'the country' then can I politely suggest you stop your moaning about freedom of movement going and Foxtrot Off.

Deleted member 22389 · Sep 28, 2018

ManOfSussex said:
I'm glad you knew what you were voting for and wanted to end freedom of movement. I can recall you saying how much you enjoyed living in Luton amongst the Muslim, Asian diaspora, so I can see why you'd want a global immigration system and less Bulgarians and Poles coming here and more Bangladeshis and Pakistanis.

I don't mind anyone coming here as long as they integrate properly in to British society, is there anything wrong with that?.

Chicken Run · Sep 28, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
So unless you don't count yourself as being among the 'we' or 'the country' you've said the minimum wage is acceptable at the current level ( in fact in my second quote you've said it explicitly ).

And if you're not among the 'we' or 'the country' then can I politely suggest you stop your moaning about freedom of movement going and Foxtrot Off.

I think you officially own this character [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23] Top post!

ManOfSussex · Sep 28, 2018

bashlsdir said:
I don't mind anyone coming here as long as they integrate properly in to British society, is there anything wrong with that?.

Nothing at all bash. Outside of Europe, most of the world is made up of developing countries and you know how well people from developing countries integrate into British society from your time in Bedfordshire, so I can see why you want more immigration from developing countries.

Westdene Seagull · Sep 28, 2018

Plooks said:
If you read what I said I NEVER say I agree with it, just that the country has decided it is acceptable.

Apart from in the second quote :facepalm:

The Clamp · Sep 28, 2018

Whatever the argument about minimum wage and whoever’s fault it may be, I’d be pretty pissed off if my livelyhood was threatened by work going to others purely because they can get away with paying them less. In fact I experienced some of that in the security industry. I think we have differing ideas what to do about that , some go for Brexit , I’d rather go for regulation.

Kinky Gerbil · Sep 28, 2018

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....-good-deal-david-davis-says-a3948361.html?amp

David Davis :lolol:

No one can’t take him seriously anymore, surely

Baldseagull · Sep 28, 2018

wellquickwoody said:
To stop the uneducated/illiterate/untrained from foreign countries arriving on a nations shores and undercutting the local labour force? Just a thought like.

If an untrained, uneducated, illiterate foreigner is too much competition for you, perhaps you need to work harder.

Mtoto · Sep 28, 2018

Billy the Fish said:
It's interesting that you raise a point that most leave voters have been arguing on this thread since day 1. Most of your fellow remain voters don't share this view.

If there was even a remote chance of this policy being discussed Brexit would never have happened.
This "UK helping to shape policy" is just a myth, the UK government can rarely agree on a policy even within their own bloody cabinet. EU policy is shaped by the Commission and the Parliament, end of. Inter-EU migration, e.g freedom of movement is absolutely sacred to them and will never ever be discussed, let alone voted on.

FoM is not a founding principle of the EU. It is a founding principle of the single market, alongside the other three freedoms - movement of capital, services & goods - which no-one in the UK ever mentions because, as one of the "big old" EU members, they suit us just fine.

It took the better part of a decade to create the single market. Millions of person-hours in meeting rooms, thrashing out the ball-achingly dull minutiae of it all. But guess what? It actually works. Frictionless trade between more than two dozen countries that have spent much of the last two millennia invading, fighting or subjugating each other instead. This is why they weren't bluffing when they said, before, during and for more than two years after the referendum, that the four freedoms are indivisible. Take away any one of the freedoms and the single market is not a single market any more. It is not going to happen - not for any of the 27, and most certainly not for a former *EU* member that wants to leave.

You can be a member of the EU. Or not. You can also be a member of the single market. Or not. But if you want to be a member of the single market, you must - fairly reasonably, imo - abide by its rules, regardless of whether you are in the EU or not.

And while leaving the EU is just very, very stupid (again, imo), leaving the single market is, by any objective analysis of the actual numbers, f***ing insane.

Gwylan · Sep 28, 2018

Mtoto said:
It took the better part of a decade to create the single market. Millions of person-hours in meeting rooms, thrashing out the ball-achingly dull minutiae of it all. But guess what? It actually works. Frictionless trade between more than two dozen countries that have spent much of the last two millennia invading, fighting or subjugating each other instead.

The irony of it is that the person who did most to make the single market come into being was ... Margaret Thatcher.

So, it's not the nasty Europeans who try to people to the single market, it's the nasty Brits :laugh:

wellquickwoody · Sep 28, 2018

Baldseagull said:
If an untrained, uneducated, illiterate foreigner is too much competition for you, perhaps you need to work harder.

Perhaps national governments have a responsibility to their own people first and foremost. Oh, and do please be aware that I am firmly in the remain camp.

Baldseagull · Sep 28, 2018

The Clamp said:
It's the likes of you I feel for most in all this. Fooled into voting as you thought we'd get rid of all the funny foreign types and just blindly insisting we leave, come what may. You are so unprepared for the upcoming events it's eye watering watching you posture on here because we can see what you're walking into blindfolded.

Ppf is looking forward to the Eastern European migrants being replaced with Commonwealth citizens from Nigeria and Pakistan, he might even get work building a Mosque for them at the end of his road. I believe one of the Tory policies he can look forward to is the removal of the cap, because they have no idea where to set it to ensure Business growth is not restricted for lack of labour.

Lincoln Imp · Sep 28, 2018

Mtoto said:
FoM is not a founding principle of the EU. It is a founding principle of the single market, alongside the other three freedoms - movement of capital, services & goods - which no-one in the UK ever mentions because, as one of the "big old" EU members, they suit us just fine.

It took the better part of a decade to create the single market. Millions of person-hours in meeting rooms, thrashing out the ball-achingly dull minutiae of it all. But guess what? It actually works. Frictionless trade between more than two dozen countries that have spent much of the last two millennia invading, fighting or subjugating each other instead. This is why they weren't bluffing when they said, before, during and for more than two years after the referendum, that the four freedoms are indivisible. Take away any one of the freedoms and the single market is not a single market any more. It is not going to happen - not for any of the 27, and most certainly not for a former *EU* member that wants to leave.

You can be a member of the EU. Or not. You can also be a member of the single market. Or not. But if you want to be a member of the single market, you must - fairly reasonably, imo - abide by its rules, regardless of whether you are in the EU or not.

And while leaving the EU is just very, very stupid (again, imo), leaving the single market is, by any objective analysis of the actual numbers, f***ing insane.

Well said, but I am not sure you will get much of a response. A key part of the Leave message before the referendum was that German industry would force the the EU to accommodate the UK. Perhaps this contributed to Macron's recent claim that the British people have been lied to. He has a point. We shouldn't wait for an apology though - now that it is becoming clear that any significant dilution of the EU's core principles is indeed unlikely, the Brexit narrative has simply switched to something along the lines of 'they hate us so much they are even prepared to shoot themselves in the foot - thank heavens we're escaping from them'. Etc etc etc.

Baldseagull · Sep 28, 2018

Westdene Seagull said:
Rubbish - you're assuming all roles affected by immigration are minimum wage roles. IT has seen wages suppressed due to an increased number of workers being available ..... and IT doesn't pay anywhere close to the minimum wage generally.

Mostly from India.

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