[Politics] Brexit

beorhthelm · Nov 28, 2016

Baldseagull said:
Yep, she said all that, and she is guessing too. Hopefully, parliament gets the chance to set her straight about what she is entitled to infer from the referendum result.

parliament doesnt get to "set her straight". they will either respect the result and pass it or nobble it. they arent going to come up with a list of concessions and conditions to impose on negotiations - you think all the MPs have a unified position of what Brexit should look like any more than the government?

Soulman · Nov 28, 2016

Baldseagull said:
I also think the resolve of the majority of leave voters is strong at the moment, in no small part because there has been little negative effect to most people's lives so far. We will see how you all feel about it when the pain kicks in.

Why if " there has been little negative effect" is there so much gloom and scaremongering going on. Perhaps pain will kick in, but the way some are acting at the moment it is as if we are completely doomed at the moment.

Publius Ovidius · Nov 28, 2016

Interesting one today. In her conference speech Theresa May vowed that Brexit would mean “our laws will be made not in Brussels but in Westminster. The judges interpreting those laws will sit not in Luxembourg but in courts in this country. The authority of EU law in Britain will end”. Well, not quite…

The government has today decided to ratify the Unified Patent Court Agreement, which accepts both the primacy of EU law and the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice over patents in Britain. Article 20 of the agreement says “the Court shall apply Union law in its entirety and shall respect its primacy”. Article 21 says “Decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union shall be binding on the Court”. This is just one aspect of EU law, but it means May is not keeping her conference promise – on patents the EU will still have primacy…

Baldseagull · Nov 28, 2016

beorhthelm said:
parliament doesnt get to "set her straight". they will either respect the result and pass it or nobble it. they arent going to come up with a list of concessions and conditions to impose on negotiations - you think all the MPs have a unified position of what Brexit should look like any more than the government?

There does not need to be unity in parliament, just a majority. It's democracy, get over it.

beorhthelm · Nov 28, 2016

Baldseagull said:
There does not need to be unity in parliament, just a majority. It's democracy, get over it.

ok then, what is the position of the majority of MPs?

Mo Gosfield · Nov 29, 2016

beorhthelm said:
ok then, what is the position of the majority of MPs?

Sitting.

Mo Gosfield · Nov 29, 2016

portslade seagull said:
And when they lose the 2nd referendum if it ever happened they would be moaning for a 3rd vote then 4th and so on.

...and had Remain won the vote, the vast majority of Leave voters would have shrugged their shoulders, accepted the result, got on with their lives and waited patiently for the day when the EU inevitably crashes and burns.

carlzeiss · Nov 29, 2016

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...gan-3000-migrants-greece-aegean-a7444606.html

Turkey poised to send 3,000 refugees to Greece every day, intelligence officials warn

Publius Ovidius · Nov 29, 2016

Turkey is one of the most difficult issues that the EU and Europe in general has. Turkey is desperate to get into the EU and has been for years and there are countries like Austria who are vehemently against their acceptance.

They now have a huge bargaining chip in that they have hundreds of thousands of men women and children refugees from war either on their borders or inside the country who need to be moved on. The USA and NATO need them to have their military bases open to them, so it's a really delicate situation.

To be fair with what has happened with Jordan, you can understand why the Turks, if the eu are not going to play ball with their membership, they will move people onwards.....and of course Europe is the holy grail that is safe to these people.

It is an impossible situation whilst the Arab world tears itself apart!

vegster · Nov 29, 2016

Publius Ovidius said:
Turkey is one of the most difficult issues that the EU and Europe in general has. Turkey is desperate to get into the EU and has been for years and there are countries like Austria who are vehemently against their acceptance.

They now have a huge bargaining chip in that they have hundreds of thousands of men women and children refugees from war either on their borders or inside the country who need to be moved on. The USA and NATO need them to have their military bases open to them, so it's a really delicate situation.

To be fair with what has happened with Jordan, you can understand why the Turks, if the eu are not going to play ball with their membership, they will move people onwards.....and of course Europe is the holy grail that is safe to these people.

It is an impossible situation whilst the Arab world tears itself apart!

Would we allow Turkey in given the way Erdogan has manipulated his way to effectively becoming a dictator?

beorhthelm · Nov 29, 2016

vegster said:
Would we allow Turkey in given the way Erdogan has manipulated his way to effectively becoming a dictator?

Turkey is being allowed into a customs union and allowed free movement. that is already happening. full membership is probably not possible, at least for a while, for now they have membership-lite.

Publius Ovidius · Nov 29, 2016

vegster said:
Would we allow Turkey in given the way Erdogan has manipulated his way to effectively becoming a dictator?

I totally agree. But that is the dilemma. We need him to take all the refugees and for us to use his airbases and naval ports and those are his bargaining chips!

You sup with the devil etc.

Publius Ovidius · Nov 29, 2016

beorhthelm said:
Turkey is being allowed into a customs union and allowed free movement. that is already happening. full membership is probably not possible, at least for a while, for now they have membership-lite.

I thought there were countries deeply unhappy with the free movement bit and had actively refused. I.e. Austria and Spain.

synavm · Nov 29, 2016

beorhthelm said:
ok then, what is the position of the majority of MPs?

The two main parties will be whipped not to vote against Article 50- it will be passed. There will, however, be scrutiny and hopefully amends to the bill to protect our interests- which is the fundamental role of MPs- to represent and protect our interests (because democracy doesn't always throw up the right decision when it comes to the electorate's own interests, as I suspect will be the case with the referendum). A very worrying number of people seem to think that democracy begins and finishes with a vote and that the losing side's role is to not say anything. Unfortunately for them, we don't live under a dictatorship and we don't have 650 UKIP MPs.

ManOfSussex · Nov 29, 2016

beorhthelm said:
Turkey is being allowed into a customs union and allowed free movement. that is already happening. full membership is probably not possible, at least for a while, for now they have membership-lite.

I thought the visa free travel for Turks had been postponed to the end of the year after the crackdown following July's 'coup'?

WonderingSoton · Nov 29, 2016

Mo Gosfield said:
...and had Remain won the vote, the vast majority of Leave voters would have shrugged their shoulders, accepted the result, got on with their lives and waited patiently for the day when the EU inevitably crashes and burns.

As a Brexit voter I certainly assumed Remain was going to win (as was all the messages at the time). So having already set that expectation, I would have accepted it, knowing that the issue would probably come around again in some form or other within the next 10 years given the cluster**** of problems the EU has on it's plate.

The EU has (for a few years now, since the start of economic problems) no choice but to either: break apart, or integrate even further. It's my believe that the UK would exit eventually at some stage, whichever of those two paths the EU took.

Turkey being a big part of the cluster****, that Remainers have time and again refused to debate over the recent months as I've found - because they know it's a sticky wicket. The EU (and Europe as a wider whole including us whether we're in the EU or not) need Turkey to help us. They are a huge influence and military power in a very volatile part of the world, and they are gateway to a vast potential migration of peoples and problems westwards. Turkey know they have a lot of slack with the West. As long as Turkey is vaguely stable and is compliant with the West's wishes - it's change to totalitarian dictatorship will be tolerated and quietly forgotten.

alfredmizen · Nov 29, 2016

Publius Ovidius said:
I totally agree. But that is the dilemma. We need him to take all the refugees and for us to use his airbases and naval ports and those are his bargaining chips!

You sup with the devil etc.

Airbase and Naval ports are a NATO issue , not.EU

Soulman · Nov 29, 2016

WonderingSoton said:
As a Brexit voter I certainly assumed Remain was going to win (as was all the messages at the time). So having already set that expectation, I would have accepted it, knowing that the issue would probably come around again in some form or other within the next 10 years given the cluster**** of problems the EU has on it's plate.

Spot on. I certainly would not have bleated and cried for 5 months afterwards.

JC Footy Genius · Nov 29, 2016

synavm said:
The two main parties will be whipped not to vote against Article 50- it will be passed. There will, however, be scrutiny and hopefully amends to the bill to protect our interests- which is the fundamental role of MPs- to represent and protect our interests (because democracy doesn't always throw up the right decision when it comes to the electorate's own interests, as I suspect will be the case with the referendum). A very worrying number of people seem to think that democracy begins and finishes with a vote and that the losing side's role is to not say anything. Unfortunately for them, we don't live under a dictatorship and we don't have 650 UKIP MPs.

Probably true but I doubt they would even need whipping. A majority of MP's are sensible enough to know voting down (or insisting on preconditions to) the triggering of article 50 would be a step too far and cause numerous damaging repercussions.

Does democracy doesn't always throw up the right decision and our interests really mean the Remain side trying to dictate the terms of Brexit?

More worrying is the number of people who haven't really accepted the result and think it perfectly acceptable to either call for another go or insist we set out our full negotiating position now under the guise of the scrutiny reason whereas the truth is they want to block or dilute Brexit.

Unfortunately for them, we aren't as stupid as they seem to think (or keep telling us) we are. For ignoring the voice of the majority/dictatorial tendencies see 650 Lib Dem MP's.

beorhthelm · Nov 29, 2016

synavm said:
The two main parties will be whipped not to vote against Article 50- it will be passed. There will, however, be scrutiny and hopefully amends to the bill to protect our interests.

as you say, they will be whipped and even if not, i dont see a consensus emerging that would be compatible with the core objective of leaving the EU. remainers like to keep asking for detail on what Brexit means, i dont think they have presented their own alternative yet, instead relying on an assumption it will all be called off.

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