[Politics] Brexit

WATFORD zero · Dec 14, 2018

beorhthelm said:
i dont know, im looking to find out if the complete close down of all port function is based on facts or not. "all trade will cease" seems about as credible as the £350m going to the NHS.

Nobody has said 'all trade will cease'. What has been asked is 'how will we process the first truck at Dover ?'.

I'll even give you a start

We will need to ascertain what is on the truck and where is it from ? (That should be quite simple)

Again, for simplicity let's assume it's that old favourite, lamb from France.

It's this next bit that is a bit of a struggle.

Given we know what it is and what it's origin is what do we do ? (We currently have nothing agreed)
Is it within the quotas that we allow for those goods from that country ? (We currently have nothing agreed)
Is there any sort of tariff that we should be charging for those goods from that country? (We currently have nothing agreed)
How will we record the amounts against the quota limits (if there are any) ? (We currently have nothing specified, built or tested to do this)
How will we charge and record the tariffs (if there are any) ? (We currently have nothing specified, built or tested to do this)
Who will be doing all this ? (We currently have no one recruited or trained to do this)

By this time, I think you may have to add a few angry truck drivers to placate, to your 'to do' list :shrug:

You've got 105 days to answer

I'll be genuinely interested as to your findings.

Pretty pink fairy · Dec 14, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
Nobody has said 'all trade will cease'. What has been asked is 'how will we process the first truck at Dover ?'.

I'll even give you a start

We will need to ascertain what is on the truck and where is it from ? (That should be quite simple)

Again, for simplicity let's assume it's that old favourite, lamb from France.

It's this next bit that seems a bit of a struggle.

Given we know what it is and what it's origin is what do we do ?
Is it within the quotas that we allow for those goods from that country ?
Is there any sort of tariff that we should be charging for those goods from that country?
How will we record the amounts against the quota limits (if there are any) ?
How will we charge and record the tariffs (if there are any) ?
Who will be doing all this ?

By this time, I think you may have to add a few angry truck drivers to placate, to your 'to do' list

You've got 105 days to answer

I'll be genuinely interested as to your findings.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/border-force.................... contact them
regards
DR

Kinky Gerbil · Dec 14, 2018

I see about 15 leavers course CARNAGE today by standing in the road.

Maybe that is the uprising that has been promised?

lawros left foot · Dec 14, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
Nobody has said 'all trade will cease'. What has been asked is 'how will we process the first truck at Dover ?'.

I'll even give you a start

We will need to ascertain what is on the truck and where is it from ? (That should be quite simple)

Again, for simplicity let's assume it's that old favourite, lamb from France.

It's this next bit that is a bit of a struggle.

Given we know what it is and what it's origin is what do we do ? (We currently have nothing agreed)
Is it within the quotas that we allow for those goods from that country ? (We currently have nothing agreed)
Is there any sort of tariff that we should be charging for those goods from that country? (We currently have nothing agreed)
How will we record the amounts against the quota limits (if there are any) ? (We currently have nothing specified, built or tested to do this)
How will we charge and record the tariffs (if there are any) ? (We currently have nothing specified, built or tested to do this)
Who will be doing all this ? (We currently have no one recruited or trained to do this)

By this time, I think you may have to add a few angry truck drivers to placate, to your 'to do' list

You've got 105 days to answer

I'll be genuinely interested as to your findings.

If he performs anything like Leaver politicians, he would have already resigned, and is stood on the sidelines shouting”This isn’t the Brexit people voted for”while offering absolutely no achievable end result.

He’ll probably end up with a Knighthood, though.

beorhthelm · Dec 14, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
Nobody has said 'all trade will cease'. What has been asked is 'how will we process the first truck at Dover ?'.

the previous comment certainly gave that impression. so how do we manage to process say lamb from New Zealand? im not denying there will be problems, systems need updating and there will be staffing issues, but there are process and systems in place to deal with imports outside the EU. the main problem with going WTO would be quotas (if undecided, which the other countries are using to try to get more quota out of EU). seems very different to "no rules, tariffs or quotas on which to work and no method of charging, recording or collecting anything" and saying nothing is agreed.

or you could have just said "yes" to the question if you honestly believe those problems. its not worth arguing about, and i dont think it will come to this anyway.

Tubby-McFat-Fuc · Dec 14, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
I'm not wasting any more time on what is obviously a very poor attempt at a wind-up

Its not a wind up. What will happen to flights when we leave on 30th March with no deal in place?

You accuse me of flouncing off, and here you are an hour later doing the same thing?

So what will happen to flights in and out of the UK if we leave with no deal?

Simple question?

Tubby-McFat-Fuc · Dec 14, 2018

BBassic said:
Referendums in the UK are not binding. Whatever a politician might promise you. What's that old joke? How do you know when a politician is lying? When their mouth is open.

FWIW, I'd rather not have a 2nd referendum either and I say that as a remainer. However to go into the end of March with a plan that nobody wants is just nuts. I don't know what the solution is. Either way a whole bunch of people on every side of the political spectrum are going to be hacked off. It is unwinnable.

This one was. They passed a law to leave on the 29th March. We are leaving on the 29th March unless they pass a new law to over ride. I wish them luck with that!

WATFORD zero · Dec 14, 2018

beorhthelm said:
the previous comment certainly gave that impression. so how do we manage to process say lamb from New Zealand? im not denying there will be problems, systems need updating and there will be staffing issues, but there are process and systems in place to deal with imports outside the EU. the main problem with going WTO would be quotas (if undecided, which the other countries are using to try to get more quota out of EU). seems very different to "no rules, tariffs or quotas on which to work and no method of charging, recording or collecting anything" and saying nothing is agreed.

or you could have just said "yes" to the question if you honestly believe those problems. its not worth arguing about, and i dont think it will come to this anyway.

Very good example, Lamb from New Zealand. And this is just one example of one type of Import from one country.

Lamb offers a perfect illustration of the problems after Brexit. Currently, the EU has an agreement to buy 230,000 tonnes of New Zealand's lamb and goat meat each year, under a quota with reduced tariffs, but Britain traditionally buys 40 percent of this.

Britain wants to try to divide the 230,000 tonnes between the U.K. and the EU, but this also has legal risks. Big agricultural exporters from Latin America to Australasia could always argue that they lose some of their market access under the new division and could look to sue at the World Trade Organization.

That is why New Zealand won't agree our WTO submissions. I don't know where the idea has come from, that negotiating with the WTO and the largest economies and trading blocs in the world is somehow easier then negotiating with the EU.

I think that people refuse to invest the time understanding the 'solutions' offered and therefor just pick what they perceive to be the simplest. I WANT THAT ONE !

Anyway, I agree with you that it won't happen because at least the vast majority of the people with authority understand that :thumbsup:

BBassic · Dec 14, 2018

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
This one was. They passed a law to leave on the 29th March. We are leaving on the 29th March unless they pass a new law to over ride. I wish them luck with that!

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

The referendum was not legally binding. There’s no one source that can prove this statement true (although here’s a respectable one). That follows from the fact that the European Union Referendum Act 2015 didn’t say anything about implementing the result of the vote. It just provided that there should be one.

In other countries, referendums are often legally binding—for example, because the vote is on whether to amend the constitution. The UK, famously, doesn’t have a codified constitution.

A UK referendum will only have the force of law if the Act setting it up says so. In practical terms this would mean someone would be able to go to court to make the government implement the result. The Alternative Vote referendum in 2011, for example, was legally binding in this way.

Otherwise, as the High Court put it on 3 November:

“a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament”.

So, purely as a matter of law, neither the government nor Parliament has to do anything about the referendum.

WATFORD zero · Dec 14, 2018

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
Its not a wind up. What will happen to flights when we leave on 30th March with no deal in place?

You accuse me of flouncing off, and here you are an hour later doing the same thing?

So what will happen to flights in and out of the UK if we leave with no deal?

Simple question?

I have been out doing things.

I don't know, because it's not an area that interests me. Maybe this person knows more

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1025399/Brexit-news-Jean-Claude-Juncker-UK-EU-no-deal-plane-landing-latest

You asked me what would happen, in the event of a 'no deal' and I explained to you. You didn't have an answer to any of the points i raised so you then went off at a tangent on flights :shrug:

I notice you haven't explained how you think goods would be handled through Dover ?

Tubby-McFat-Fuc · Dec 14, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
That is why New Zealand won't agree our WTO submissions. I don't know where the idea has come from, that negotiating with the WTO is somehow easier then negotiating with the EU.

So New Zealand will not be importing enough Lamb to the EU, so they will not agree to us having simlair terms under the WTO??

The EU will fail in it's contact, and New Zealand will try and block the WTO allowing us terms to buy it?

Anyway, how are we going to fly New Zealand lambs into the UK if we leave without a deal. Still waiting on your views on what will happen to flights on 30th March?

Or are you going to have another :flounce:

that you like to accuse others of having.

Off for a dinner meeting. Be back soon!!

Thunder Bolt · Dec 14, 2018

[tweet]1073577603171270656[/tweet]

WATFORD zero · Dec 14, 2018

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
So New Zealand will not be importing enough Lamb to the EU, so they will not agree to us having simlair terms under the WTO??

The EU will fail in it's contact, and New Zealand will try and block the WTO allowing us terms to buy it?

Anyway, how are we going to fly New Zealand lambs into the UK if we leave without a deal. Still waiting on your views on what will happen to flights on 30th March?

Or are you going to have another that you like to accuse others of having.

Off for a dinner meeting. Be back soon!!

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say, but the simple fact is that New Zealand have blocked our submission :shrug:

Or alternatively, you have as much understanding as you do with your 'no deal' with a transition period :lolol:

Berty23 · Dec 14, 2018

Tubby-McFat-Fuc said:
Its not a wind up. What will happen to flights when we leave on 30th March with no deal in place?

You accuse me of flouncing off, and here you are an hour later doing the same thing?

So what will happen to flights in and out of the UK if we leave with no deal?

Simple question?

At the moment they couldn’t. They will all need to get permission. Obviously it is highly likely they will get permission but at the moment this is not in place.

The government has been clear on this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...s-to-and-from-the-uk-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

JC Footy Genius · Dec 14, 2018

I see the Swiss are getting ready for our departure ..

Federal Council lays the foundation for future economic and trade relations with the United Kingdom

Bern, 14.12.2018 - At its meeting on 14 December the Federal Council approved the text of a trade agreement with the UK aiming to maintain existing economic and trade relations with the country after its departure from the European Union.

...At its meeting on 14 December, the Federal Council approved the text of a trade agreement with the UK which could serve as a basis for future economic and trade relations. This agreement guarantees, as far as possible, the continuation of the economic and commercial rights and obligations arising from the agreements between Switzerland and the EU, and provides for exploratory discussions aimed at developing these bilateral relations in the future... there is a possibility that the UK may leave the EU in a disorderly manner (‘No deal’ scenario) on 29 March next year, and that no transition period would not come into effect. In that event, the text of the agreement approved by the Federal Council makes it possible to replicate in substance the vast majority of trade agreements that currently regulate relations between Switzerland and the UK. If the relevant parliamentary committees, which will be consulted early next year, approve the agreement, it could be signed and be applied from the date on which the UK leaves the EU.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-73415.html

beorhthelm · Dec 14, 2018

Thunder Bolt said:
[tweet]1073577603171270656[/tweet]

well thats clear then. :lolol:

Tubby-McFat-Fuc · Dec 14, 2018

WATFORD zero said:
I have been out doing things.

I don't know, because it's not an area that interests me. Maybe this person knows more

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1025399/Brexit-news-Jean-Claude-Juncker-UK-EU-no-deal-plane-landing-latest

You asked me what would happen, I explained to you and you then went off at a tangent on flights

I notice you haven't explained how you think goods would be handled through Dover ?

Exactly the same as flights. As it stands we cannot fly out of the UK because we fly under EU law. We can block nearly all of Irelands flights into the EU. We can block nearly all European flights to North America, if we leave with a deal, as there will be nothing in place to allow us to fly.

So, what will happen. Someone will pass an amendment or temporary law to allow us to fly, and allow us to keep the skies open.

Just the same I believe the EU will agree to a temporary law on allowing us to continue to trade as we are now. Because both sides hurt if we do not. Either the EU will give us a temporary deal exactly the same as it is now, or the WTO will pass a law to let us trade as we do under EU as we do now.

Both completely un-thinkable to you at the moment, but as necessary as the aviation situation.

Off course they are not going to say that right at this moment in time, but I don't the EU want to **** themselves up, any more than we do.

Because in my opinion, the chances of us not being able to freely trade on 30th March, is as likely as us not being able to fly on 30th March, and closing North America to most EU flights, which is a big fat ZERO

tinycowboy · Dec 14, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
I see the Swiss are getting ready for our departure ..

Federal Council lays the foundation for future economic and trade relations with the United Kingdom

Bern, 14.12.2018 - At its meeting on 14 December the Federal Council approved the text of a trade agreement with the UK aiming to maintain existing economic and trade relations with the country after its departure from the European Union.

...At its meeting on 14 December, the Federal Council approved the text of a trade agreement with the UK which could serve as a basis for future economic and trade relations. This agreement guarantees, as far as possible, the continuation of the economic and commercial rights and obligations arising from the agreements between Switzerland and the EU, and provides for exploratory discussions aimed at developing these bilateral relations in the future... there is a possibility that the UK may leave the EU in a disorderly manner (‘No deal’ scenario) on 29 March next year, and that no transition period would not come into effect. In that event, the text of the agreement approved by the Federal Council makes it possible to replicate in substance the vast majority of trade agreements that currently regulate relations between Switzerland and the UK. If the relevant parliamentary committees, which will be consulted early next year, approve the agreement, it could be signed and be applied from the date on which the UK leaves the EU.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-73415.html

I think this is saying that the Swiss Federal Council believes that the UK is able to novate its WTO schedules from an EU-wide to a UK-only perspective and would therefore be able to trade under WTO rules when it has committed to these schedules (which can be prepared for in advance of 29th March). Has there been a legal opinion on whether the EU could block this approach?

Tubby-McFat-Fuc · Dec 14, 2018

JC Footy Genius said:
I see the Swiss are getting ready for our departure ..

Federal Council lays the foundation for future economic and trade relations with the United Kingdom

Bern, 14.12.2018 - At its meeting on 14 December the Federal Council approved the text of a trade agreement with the UK aiming to maintain existing economic and trade relations with the country after its departure from the European Union.

...At its meeting on 14 December, the Federal Council approved the text of a trade agreement with the UK which could serve as a basis for future economic and trade relations. This agreement guarantees, as far as possible, the continuation of the economic and commercial rights and obligations arising from the agreements between Switzerland and the EU, and provides for exploratory discussions aimed at developing these bilateral relations in the future... there is a possibility that the UK may leave the EU in a disorderly manner (‘No deal’ scenario) on 29 March next year, and that no transition period would not come into effect. In that event, the text of the agreement approved by the Federal Council makes it possible to replicate in substance the vast majority of trade agreements that currently regulate relations between Switzerland and the UK. If the relevant parliamentary committees, which will be consulted early next year, approve the agreement, it could be signed and be applied from the date on which the UK leaves the EU.

https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-73415.html

No, No, No they are lying.

According to our resident expert Watford Zero, it would illegal for us to enter any trade talks with another country until after we leave the EU.

At least we will be able to get our aspirin from Switzerland if the remainers worst nightmare happens!!

Ernest · Dec 14, 2018

Nebulous seems to have upset May

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